Mindfulness and Business with Lori Schwanbeck - The Mindful FIRE Podcast - Episode 2

Adam Coelho: [00:00:00] Welcome to the mindful fire podcast, where or living mindfully on the path to financial independence and beyond on today's episode, we'll speak with my friend, Lori Schwan Beck, a psychotherapist executive coach, and mindfulness instructor and curriculum designer in the San Francisco Bay area. In this episode, we'll learn how Lori first got interested in mindfulness, despite being quite averse to the idea we'll learn.

How and why Lori transitioned from a career in marketing to a career in psychotherapy and executive coaching with mindfulness at the center of both. And Lori shares her thoughts on why it's so important to tune into your body. And we'll learn about the difference between coaching and therapy. We'll also hear Lori's top advice for people looking to develop a regular meditation practice.

We'll learn how Lori. Intentionally designs her life and her business by combining multiple streams of income through the various aspects of her business. And we'll get Lori's thoughts on how to find a niche in a crowded market by tuning into what interests you most. And finally, we'll get Lori's top advice for people looking to build a career in the mindfulness field.

All right. I hope you enjoy this episode with my friend, Lori Schwann back,

Lori. Welcome to the podcast. 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:01:30] Thank you so much, Adam. 

Adam Coelho: [00:01:33] It's great to have you here and I'm excited to have you share your story with our audience. 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:01:39] And I am delighted to be here. Love what you're doing and I love sharing and supporting you and other people in this field. 

Adam Coelho: [00:01:48] Thank you so much. So let's start with a little bit about your backstory and your professional backstory, your life backstory, and then also how you got into mindfulness.

Lori Schwanbck: [00:01:59] Okay, such a big question. 

Adam Coelho: [00:02:01] First question. 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:02:03] Cool. I think relevant to us today. I have a business background I'm from Canada and I have a background in marketing and when I was working in the marketing. Business realm. I had a lot of fun. It was enjoyable, but I realized that selling stuff and product marketing, which is what I was doing was not ultimately fulfilling.

And I was much more interested in people. And I figured if I could understand people well enough to have them. Make a behavior change. In this case, it was purchasing a product and I could use that same skillset of understanding behavior change, but instead of having oriented towards buying a thing, it was more about how to change behavior in ways that supported wellbeing.

Very interested in the building of lives of engagements, of happiness, of thriving wellbeing. I quit. My job moved to California and studied. What's called transpersonal psychology, which is a blend of Western or positive psychology and Eastern practices around meditation and mindfulness. And quite honestly, Adam, at that point I was I had a lot of judgment about.

Meditation. I grew up in a very pragmatic Canadian, hardworking family where whose value was on doing. And the idea of being was associated with laziness and, also going through, an education, a business school, and a focus on. More materialism again, the idea of just sitting my idea of meditation, was it just belly button gazing at the time?

So I had a lot of judgment and yet in my life, the. Experiences I've had of just being still and quiet and more contemplation especially in nature have always been very important to me. I just didn't really think that was meditation, but it was actually my experience with psychology and really understanding what a psychology and how.

Training of the mind through meditation and mindfulness practices could be so supportive of psychological and physiological wellbeing. So that was really my doorway in was looking at the impact on the mind and Also the neuroscience, frankly of watching how training attention with intention can lead to these host of benefits and can change our brain in ways that really help us live a better life.

So that's that part of the journey. So I've been practicing as a psychotherapist for the last 17 years, and I initially. I was introduced to mindfulness based treatments by getting trained in something called dialectical behavior therapy, which is a type of therapy that integrates mindfulness as its core principle in terms of treatment.

And there's been a lot of research done on it and it's highly studied and treatment outcomes are very. Efficacious really in treating a wide range of emotion, dysregulation disorders. And so I was running emotional intelligence mindfulness groups for a number of years in my clinical practice.

And then one day I came across the curriculum for the search inside yourself program. This was just. At the time when it spun out from being offered at Google and I saw this curriculum and I thought, wow, this is exactly what I've been teaching in my clinical practice. And it's is, geared towards a nonclinical population.

So the thought of having. The ability to scale what I was doing beyond just working with people who have who had Clem cells in a therapist's office was really exciting to me. So that's the Genesis. 

Adam Coelho: [00:06:22] I'm interested in how, given your skepticism, your kind of judgment towards meditation and mindfulness initially, how you ended up choosing this transpersonal kind of.

Lens of psychotherapy. 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:06:41] It's a really great question. Nobody's asked me before. I think because at the time I was looking for, because I was interested in people and human behavior and I was looking more so to frameworks that support people thriving rather than. Orienting towards trauma and more of the, what we might think of as more traditional psychology was just really helping people who might have Like from a problem oriented lens, really important work.

But my interest was more looking at let's look at the tail end of the bell curve, where people are actually thriving and get curious about what are those people doing that supports optimal functioning. And let's apply that more broadly that in ways that can. Support people who are really struggling, but also help Uplevel people who really want to feel more of a sense of a liveliness engagement and purpose in their life.

So I specifically looked for a type of psychology that was yeah, not just problem focused, but also in the realm of. In the West, what we call positive psychology, which is really helping people to not just survive, but to thrive. 

Adam Coelho: [00:08:04] Interesting. So it was looking at that interest in people and helping them thrive in their lives.

And rather than looking at the fixing of problems or issues that people are having, that led you to this particular discipline. It sounds like interesting. And how did the mindfulness component manifest and the day to day clinical practice with the people you were working with?

Lori Schwanbck: [00:08:34] I. Have you interesting because many times there's so many different types of therapy when can practice, but almost all of them look at some components of where you place your attention and looking at how the mind generates thoughts, how we relate to emotions and different types or different schools of therapy might call it something different.

But when I came across the research on mindfulness, I really saw that, Oh, that's what so many different types of therapy are pointing to. And this was just much more of a clear, elegant, systematic training of the mind. And so in a clinical. Room. It might be becoming aware of one's thoughts and in cognitive behavioral therapy, you do a thought record, you like write out your thoughts.

So in that way, just like in meditation, practice, it cultivates the ability to observe the phenomena of your mind in Hakomi, which is another type of therapy that I've been trained in. It's really about bringing mindfulness, bringing awareness to the body and a recognition that when we, when a person is.

In common we talk about there's the story and then the storyteller, and soon to become interested, not just in the content of one's experience, but how does that impact you? And most of the impact can be discovered by tracking what happens in the body. So it's not like massage or any types of therapeutic body work, but it was more about body awareness and recognizing that.

We can drop beneath the story. We tell ourselves and really feel into more authentic layers of who we are and what matters to us when we began to track the sensations of the body. So those are just two examples of you're working with the body, working with thoughts, and actually one more, if we want to bring emotions and is in the realm of the dialectical behavior therapy, which is the other type of therapy that I've been trained in.

The recognition that emotions drives so much of our behavior and not all of it. And the ability just like with cognitive behavioral therapy, to recognize thoughts with DBT dialectical behavior therapy. There's. The capacity to witness one's emotional state and then develop the wisdom they call it wise mind.

And that's like observing mind to recognize, is this an emotion that I want to follow the action? If I'm feeling a feeling of anger, is it wise to follow that anger and get really upset with a coworker? Or is it important to actually learn how to regulate that? Each of those different types of therapies have interventions that arise from being aware of thoughts were of the body aware of emotions that I think are important and imperative to live a life of.

 Health wellbeing and ultimately satisfaction in one's life. Otherwise we just get whipped around by, these thoughts or emotions in ways that we might, that might lead us to create lives that aren't optimal for ourselves. 

Adam Coelho: [00:11:58] Yeah, I can definitely relate to that, to both the getting jerked around by emotions and thoughts and.

Not even being aware of the story that's going on in my head for many years and being blown away. When I started to realize it started to practice meditation and really see what's that stream, what's a thought and emotion. And then. Taking it to them. The second thing you mentioned of body awareness of frilly, how do these things show up?

How do these fo these emotions show up in my body is something I'm still really working on in, in, when you are working with people on that second piece of the body piece, is it just like a body scan or what practical practices can people do to train that ability? 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:12:52] I think a body scan is a great practice.

And it's, definitely of course, a meditation to do in clinical practice and not just in my clinical practice, but when I'm teaching in different environments as well organizations, groups, schools, I generally like to. Track have just point people as they're speaking about something to their bodies.

So when you're talking about the situation with your son and having to take care of him well, working from home, like what do you notice happens in your body when you're thinking about whether or not you want to stay in this job? Let's just notice what happens when I say to you, Adam, you should leave your job right now.

Notice what happens? Take a big breath and then notice what happens when I say Adam, you should stay in your job right now. In other words, give people prompts and then just see what happens in their own physiology. So that's okay. It's a more targeted use of body awareness than the body scan, which is no more comprehensive.

This is giving some prompt or stimuli and seeing what the impact is in the body. 

Adam Coelho: [00:14:13] Interesting. Yeah. And would you say that people have the bodily awareness. Baseline to be able to notice that because I feel like for me I, before I really the thing that kind of opened this up for me was doing a 10 day silent retreat.

One of the GOCO retreats that we've talked about before really that, just focusing on sensations in the body, cultivated that. And it lasted for a time afterwards where I was like, okay, I'm actually a lot more in tune with kind of more subtle sensations. And so I'd be able to respond to my bow.

I'd be able to tune in more to the actual physiological sensations that are a reaction to whatever your prompt is. So I'm wondering, is that something that people need to develop or that most people just. They are able to tap into it to some degree. 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:15:09] I think it really varies. I think there's levels of sensation that we can track.

I have found in my experience, at least that most people can sense if their jaw is tight, most people will be able to feel a sensation in their belly. There's these areas of the body where the nervous system. It's more likely going to send out signals of tension or changes in heart rate or temperature.

And generally people can track that if you have more practice, like certainly a 10 day go, ANCA retreat will give you, or just, more familiarity with tracking the body, you'll be able to pick up more subtle signals. And so the more you do that, the increase in self-awareness for sure. But most people can track the more gross signals, especially in the jaw and belly.

Yeah, 

Adam Coelho: [00:16:09] that makes a lot of sense. And it sounds like a very interesting way, working with a therapist or even, with someone who's just giving these prompts and having you really think about it and reflect back to the other person, what you're feeling can be super helpful to give you insight that otherwise would just go unnoticed.

Lori Schwanbck: [00:16:28] That's right. I think, we, over-index on the thinking mind so much and there's this misperception that. Our thoughts or our rational processes are what guide us. And as it's there's this whole other processing system, which is called the implicit processing system, which is beneath the threshold of awareness and that's what we're tapping into.

And we feel in the body and that's really what drives our thinking and our behavior much more than our cognition. I've seen many people just get stuck in weighing pros and cons forever in the rational realm. And then when they begin to drop into the body, they have access to a much wider repertoire of impulses and awareness that can help.

Adam Coelho: [00:17:16] Interesting. Yeah. Shifting gears a little bit, I'd love to understand how, it sounds like you started down the mindfulness route in your practice and your professional kind of therapy practice. How did it start to become more than that and doing it in other Other contexts, maybe in the business setting or other things how did that transition happen for you?

Lori Schwanbck: [00:17:43] I started teaching other therapists and other healthcare providers, how to integrate mindfulness in their clinical work. I started doing that about 12 years ago. So I was an early Teacher, I guess you could say bringing mindfulness into the clinical realm. So a lot of comfort and familiarity and teaching groups.

Then as I said, I found this search inside yourself curriculum, and I saw that is much what I do in the clinical realm. And I was asked to teach, search inside yourself when they first spun out from Google and became their own non-profit. So it was one of the first teachers of the search inside yourself program.

And so through that have been teaching mindfulness-based emotional intelligence around the world and. I still see clients individually. I still do clinical work, but I also do coaching mindfulness based coaching. So my teaching within organizations also offers me a stream of potential individual clients that I work with outside of the.

The organizational realm, but in a coaching capacity with a mindfulness focus I also develop curriculum for other organizations that hire me to develop courses. And I love doing that. I love training other people to do it and creating experiences for people to really get what mindfulness is because my.

Training as a clinician actually is very experience-based. And  bring that into designing curriculum as well. So the doorway is really through the search inside yourself teaching, but that has opened up other possibilities where I design and facilitate curriculum for other organizations.

Adam Coelho: [00:19:36] Interesting. Yeah. It's like a million million questions popping into my head. So where, which way to go? Yeah. You originally get connected with silly, the search inside yourself, leadership Institute. 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:19:47] In full disclosure it's all about who, I guess I my partner is Mark Coleman, who is a meditation teacher and at spirit rock.

And he was initially approached again through someone he knows, who knows Who knew the people who were starting the search inside yourself leadership Institute. And so he was the one who I was looking at his material. He's this is totally up your alley. And so it was yeah, pure and simple nepotism, total fortune grateful.

Yeah. The 

Adam Coelho: [00:20:19] way things happen, 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:20:20] right? Yeah. 

Adam Coelho: [00:20:22] Yep. Interesting. And 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:20:25] But just to say to that, I was greatly fortunate, but for people who might not have the fortune to know someone directly like that, I would say that in all of life, it's leveraging connections. Like relationships are so important, yours and my relationship is important.

 So to really. Take care of your relationships and your network, because that's where doors will open and opportunities arise from. 

Adam Coelho: [00:20:53] Yeah, that's a really good point. And just to let everyone know one the audience, Lori, and I know each other through the search inside yourself program.

Cause we, we actually taught the program together at Google and a lot of my kind of development as a facilitator is due to teaching with Lori and others. So I'm very grateful to have done that with you. Because those opportunities have become fewer and far between more, few and far between, because there are a lot more facilitators now.

So I know that let's see what I have here. Yeah. As you, I know that there are a lot of People that have been trained to teach courses, like search inside yourself, other programs, and are looking to make a go at making a career in the mindfulness space, as that is what I'm looking to explore with this podcast.

I'm interested to understand if there are certain things that you did as you were making this shift to. Identify or explore these opportunities to, to be successful, or if it just happened naturally for you, 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:22:04] Again, I think just like we think that we can, it's our thoughts that are actually making decisions for us.

I think that there's so many causes and conditions that contribute to each moment. So I think it's a grace. I think that I was great. Lee fortunate that I was in the field, both as a therapist in early, an early adopter to meditation and a t-shirt of that in the world of therapy, but also in the world of business.

So I was always fortunate and there's grace and a lot of support that I got from people around me, for sure. And I. I'm constantly developing myself. So my own practice is critical. Teaching other people how to navigate the realms of their mind and heart and body. You've got to know that terrain.

And so my own practice is really critical. It keeps me humble as well. Because it's not about a curriculum like teaching. This is really about being. Guide and coach journey or with people. So  practice. I'm also profoundly curious about people, about neuroscience, about what it means to be human.

So I'm reading and studying and aware a lot of And try and keep up with a lot of different research and writing and thinking in the field of mindfulness, emotional intelligence and how to apply that in the world. So preparation both in terms of your own practice, but your own learning is really critical and also looking and seeing what's out there.

So my current. In the last year, interest has really been about how mindfulness can support, not just self development, but the development of relationships. And so an application to teams and creating cultures of compassion, of kindness, of connection. So within that, there's both a following. What brings you alive and most curious and deepen into that because you can't know everything about everything, but having a broad survey of the different aspects and the deepening into a couple of areas that have salience for you, I think is really important because then it's conveyed.

There's a meaning and authenticity that you bring to it. And it's interesting, frankly. But also look at where there's opportunity, where the need is. So for me, I really saw that there's a lot of work being done in mindfulness and not so much yet in the realm of interpersonal or compassion.

 Just got curious about that. So it's both, what are you interested in? What is needed? And it might be a topic area that's needed. It might be a population where you really see that it's needed. So to get interested, follow that. 

Adam Coelho: [00:25:21] Yeah. And that makes a lot of sense, and really diving in on the aspect that interests you and going deep on that.

And, if that isn't the area that's covered off on by everyone else, it presents an opportunity.

And you mentioned that there's these kinds of their various types of work that you do. You have your clinical practice, you have coaching you have curriculum development and training people to develop, to deliver curriculum. And. The cover, all of them are there.

There's probably a few more facilitation and facilitation. And you mentioned that kind of like the facilitation in either companies or different organizations provides a potential source of opportunity to move into the coaching and potentially therapy realm as well. I'm curious,  what is the diff like, how does the coaching.

What does that kind of engagement look like? And how's it different than therapy? 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:26:25] It's a, yeah, it's a good question. I think that

therapy generally has coaching is more, project-based almost recently someone hired me because they. Oh, we're part of this company. And they wanted to know if it was like they wanted to explore whether or not it was time for them to leave and go to a new create a new opportunity for themselves.

So it's more about a project or a specific issue that one is wanting just like it's more time-bound therapy might be more open-ended and more I'm really struggling in general with relationships in my life. And I want to explore that. So it might be pointing to a little bit of a more deeper systemic patterning that needs to be unraveled and rebuilt.

So it might be a little bit more longer lasting, yeah, a longer relationship because I am trained as a therapist. The deeper aspects of human behavior are going to come out in my coaching as well. I imagine. Yeah, but it's, can it be it's a little more future focused and what do I want to create and build rather than spending more time in exploration of.

Early childhood things that might have created more of the conditioning and patterning that one is moving forward in. 

Adam Coelho: [00:28:02] Got it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, actually. And I know that as you, obviously moved more into this mindfulness kind of teaching and facilitation more outside of your.

Practice, your clinical practice. Obviously you were trained as a search inside yourself facilitator, and I think I read that you were also trained as a mindfulness teacher from through Jack Kornfield and Tara Brock's program. 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:28:28] Is that right? Yes. Yeah. I did a two year training with Jack and Tara, Jack Kornfield and Tara abroad.

So I'm a certified mindfulness meditation teacher through them. 

Adam Coelho: [00:28:39] And what was that experience? I think they're actually opening that up again right now for either next year or something like that. Obviously it's of interest to me as a person interested in mindfulness and facilitating mindfulness.

 Guess the question I'm wondering is is that. But is that necessary to pursue this and explore if this is something that I want to erode that I want to go down professionally down the road, or is being a search inside yourself, facilitator enough, or what are your thoughts on that?

Lori Schwanbck: [00:29:12] I do. I think the search inside yourself, facilitation training is great. And it's very secularly focused, which is really good for targeting business communities and the languaging and structure that search inside yourself gives is great. It's really fantastic and melds well with the business community.

The. Hesitation I would have is if search inside yourself does require personal practice, some secular mindfulness teaching training. Doesn't re put such a high emphasis on that. And I have a little bit of a concern about that because I do think that when you are guiding people to. Explore their minds, explore their hearts, explore their bodies.

Because as we said earlier, there's an over-indexing on the cognitive and rational that might enter territory that they're not familiar with. And I think without a depth of training, one. Risks either missing opportunities for people to deepen into their experience or being completely Flomex when people drop into a level of their own experience, whether it's, some level of trauma or confusion or bliss that they don't have experience with and know how to hold did that could be problematic as well.

So the training with Jack and Tara has much more of a Explicit Buddhist tone to it and has more of a deepening around some of the Buddhist psychology principles that aren't found in a training such as search inside yourself or the more secular trainings. I think the combination is really powerful.

I think that.

Your credibility. When you go into an organization, if you were not to have your own personal experience in the business world, for example, or, if you wanted to go into a specific sector like the legal field or working with first responders, it's really helpful to have a background in that yourself, if you don't, it's important to have the languaging so that your credibility and integrity and trust is there.

A mindfulness teacher training program in and of itself may open some doors. It might not open all the doors really depends on who you want to target your own experience and the comfort you want to have in going deep with people. 

Adam Coelho: [00:31:56] Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And Yeah, I think that is something that I've seen in, in facilitating search inside yourself as w as well.

Sometimes people something's come up for people and, in my own practice, I've seen quite a lot has come up and it's not always easy to deal with. And if you don't have a good teacher with that experience and that knowledge of how to work with that, it's, it becomes, unhelpful at best.

 Okay. That's very interesting. Would you recommend that particular training program? 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:32:33] It's virtual now, so it's good. I went through, it was, I was there in their first cohort and it was live then and I prefer live. But in this current world we're living in virtual is good. And again, full disclosure.

My partner Mark Coleman runs a mindfulness teacher training program and it's, I would say. It's live. And they've been, they've trained hundreds of people, but, and it's much more experiential. The online is great for, again, this circumstance and accessibility, I think there's something in the live trainings.

That's really important because to teach mindfulness. The quality of presence that you bring is really important and not something that gets conveyed. I think when you're in the presence of a live teacher. So that said Jack and Tara trading is great. You're going to be in a cohort of like a thousand plus people.

If you want to do it virtually that's great. And there are other options. If you want to do something in person, if that's even going to be possible in our world. Yeah. 

Adam Coelho: [00:33:39] At some point, I assume they will open. We'll be back to that, but I hope so. And if people wanted to learn more about Mark Coleman's program, where could they do 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:33:48] that?

They could do that through the mindfulness Institute. Online. And he also runs actually a nature teacher training program. So if you wanting to do be a mindfulness teacher integrating nature that's another teacher training program that he does that I think is really fantastic, but that's again my bias, not only because Mark is my partner, but also because nature is where I do most of my practice, so 

Adam Coelho: [00:34:17] right.

And okay. So I'd like to switch gears a little bit again, and it just you have all these different components of your mindful, like of bringing mindfulness into your kind of professional life. What kind of percentages would you say each one contributes to your livelihood? 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:34:44] You know what I mean?

It right now is different because we're in the middle of shelter in place. And so all of my teaching, my in-person teaching has been counseled for the year. So it's drastically changed. But before that I have made the decision to structure it where I was getting about 75% of my income from.

Organizational mindfulness training and 25 from individual client work. So it was about 75, 25. And I like having the, I like doing both so it sounds 

Adam Coelho: [00:35:18] like you're right. It sounds like you are designing your life, how you'd like to, where you'd like to spend your time, but both are important. So you want to make space for both.

Got it. Very interesting. Okay. All right. So let's shift gears to the mindful fire final four, which are the final four questions. And so what is something or someone that you are incredibly grateful for right now?

Lori Schwanbck: [00:35:49] Would say I'm very grateful for my partner, Mark. He has. Really supported my growth in this and open doors for me. And we share a love of mindfulness in nature as being the doorway to presence, to something greater than, and to like really deep sense of resilience, especially during these times.

 Feel very grateful to be sheltering in place with someone who shares the practice. Yeah, 

Adam Coelho: [00:36:20] that's wonderful. Yeah. But I imagine that could be helpful. All right. Number two. What piece of advice would you give to an aspiring meditator? Someone who's just starting their practice 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:36:35] meditator to start really small and really be okay with.

Times of frustration or apathy, but two start small and notice again, for me, this is my doorway. And as we're speaking and noticing this lovely arrangement of flowers that Mark brought through me actually. And so it's just like noticing the little moments of what's it like to really be present with an experience and yeah.

To take it in, whether it's just what does it feel like to bring full attention to one breath or an object of beauty or this moment of conversation and really orient to the benefit that being present can provide and then build on that. So I liked the tactile, I like the something that is engaging to point To the experience of deep satisfaction and connection that comes when we bring our full attention to something.

So that's, my suggestion is falling complete attention to one breath to one conversation to one thing of beauty. 

Adam Coelho: [00:37:46] I could see how the nature aspect can really support that, cause when you're in nature, you've just wow, this is amazing. And you're like fully there. And so I could see how really tuning into that can support building on that.

All right. So number three, what piece of advice would you give someone who is an aspiring mindfulness professional? 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:38:11] Similar to what I said before. I think that following what creates an, a liveliness and salience for you, like why does it matter to you? Because that's really what you're going to be conveying to others.

We teach not just from what we know, but from who we are, and if we're teaching something or a way of describing something or some. Way of applying something that really matters to us that becomes the invitation for others. So just to track what brings you most alive within the field and teach that teach from that place?

Adam Coelho: [00:38:48] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And finally, how can people find you online and learn more about what you're working on or get in touch with you? 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:38:59] My website, Lori Schwan back.com. And my email address is on that Lori, Sean, back at Gmail and I'm willfully bad at keeping it updated. I have some resistance to creating, to selfing on a website, but reluctantly do it.

I think another piece that I want to just add to what I said about both being a meditator and being a meditation or mindfulness teacher, is that increasingly Adam. This world needs us to show up fully. We have this one life and to be fully present in it, connected to ourselves, connected to each other and our world around us.

And then to be inviting other people into that exploration, I cannot think of anything more important really. And from that, Why is action comes and there is political action or environmental action or social action in some way. So that the practice isn't just about the self, it's really recognizing how the self is embedded as part of a community as part of a world.

And we need this right now, so my encouragement is do it. It's needed. 

Adam Coelho: [00:40:20] That's yeah, I think that's a great place to end. Thank you so much, Lori. I will put your website in the show notes when I post this. And I just want to say thank you so much again for making the time and for sharing your experience and wisdom with me, most importantly as well and our audience as well.

So thank you so much. 

Lori Schwanbck: [00:40:40] My pleasure, truly Adam, I'd say it's such a delight and I'm excited that you're offering this to for yourself. Thank you. All 

Adam Coelho: [00:40:49] right. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for joining us on today. It's episode of the mindful fire podcast. If you got value from today's episode, please hit subscribe wherever you're listening to this or watching this.

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