17: Checking in with Keith Horan and The Mindfulness Community

Adam Coelho: [00:00:06] Welcome to the mindful fire podcast, where we explore living mindfully on the path to financial independence and beyond. I'm your host, Adam Coelho. And I'm so glad you're here.

On today's episode, I welcome back my friend, Keith Horan, who joined us on the first episode of The Mindful Fire Podcast. Today we're going to check back in with Keith and see what he's been up to since we last spoke.

Over the last year, Keith made a ton of progress in growing his community, the mindfulness community.com, where he helps people stick to their meditation practice and learn more and go deeper with their practice.  Keith also recently launched his own podcast called Keith and the mindfulness community, which you can find wherever you get your podcasts. In this conversation, he shares his motivation for creating this, what it's all about and what he hopes to achieve with the podcast.

We check in on how Keith's mindfulness practice has evolved over the last year and how he's taken the steps to get help from a coach to reinvigorate and deepen his mindfulness practice. 

I really enjoyed this conversation with my friend, Keith Horan, and I hope that you enjoyed as well.

Let's jump into today's episode.

welcome back to the mindful fire podcast, Keith. 

Keith Horan: [00:01:29] Hey Adam. it's great to be back here. And it's great to see how the podcast has grown since since that first episode. 

episode. 

Adam Coelho: [00:01:39] Yeah. It's been pretty awesome to see. I've learned so much along the way. It's been a lot of fun and I'm looking forward to doing more of it this year. 

So I'd love to start by just having you introduce yourself to  people who are new to the podcast or didn't listen to the episode last time.  

Keith Horan: [00:01:56] So my background is in terms of work, I was a secondary school teacher for most of my career. And then meditation wise, I started a Tibetan Buddhist practice back in 1999.

So I went to India, found teachers and dove deeply into all that. And then as I was teaching in the secondary school, I started to realize that it would be so useful if I could bring meditation to the students. But the Tibet and type of form wasn't really the most useful or the most appropriate.

So I I started looking at mindfulness, like the modern sort of secular mindfulness that you and I are so familiar with. And and then did some training in that area. I did a masters in mindfulness based approaches. And in doing that found that that I was personally getting loads out of that style.

So it became more of the style of practice that I do myself as well. And I was bringing that into schools, teaching a course called mindfulness based stress reduction, MBSR.  Then in the last two years developing this new project I founded an online community called the mindfulness community.

Adam Coelho: [00:03:05] Yeah. And I don't know if we went over this, on the podcast the first time, but Keith and I met at the end of 2019 when I was on a work rotation in Portugal, in Lisbon and Keith and I happened to be attending the same conference and actually we're on a train, a subway train, leaving that conference. Everyone's on there,  wearing the badges from  the event.

And I saw on  Keith's badge that it said, Keith, Horan, themindfulnesscommunity.com. And I'm like, I got to ask this guy what this is about.  So I got up the courage and said, "Hey, I'm Adam. Nice to meet you. What's this all about?" And Keith and I. Had about three stops on the train to make a connection.

And then we made plans to connect the next day at the conference and had a nice hour long chat about everything and have been good friends since then. So it's really one of those things where the universe aligned and brought us together. And then he was the first guest on the podcast.  It's exciting to, to share this with you and to have you back to share what you've been up to in the last year.

Keith Horan: [00:04:17] Yeah, 

I don't think I ever told you about that meeting as well. My, my wife always laughs at me about it because just before you introduce yourself or say hello on the subway, I was actually like slagging my wife. Do you say slagging? Teasing? Just mocking. I was like being a smartass. So I was  in the middle of some joke  and she always says just watch what you're doing cause you never know who's around the corner and listening.  So  I was in the middle of that sort of pantomime  when you know this this Google guy who knows everything about mindfulness and has this really interesting background just says, hello. So yeah, it was very cool. So that  we got chatting after that a bunch of times.

And then we got to meet last was it March? 

Adam Coelho: [00:04:59] Yeah, right at the beginning of the pandemic. 

Keith Horan: [00:05:02] In in San Francisco and yeah, that was amazing. And it was a really nice chance to connect again. And then the world completely changed. 

Adam Coelho: [00:05:11] Within days. Everything. Yeah. Everything locked down.

And yeah, you're probably lucky you were able to get back at that 

Keith Horan: [00:05:18] point. I remember getting home and feeling pretty relieved and I think, yeah, a few, maybe two days after I got home, we went into lockdown here. So that was yeah.

Adam Coelho: [00:05:29] We did, as well.

Keith Horan: [00:05:30] That was my last time traveling or doing anything like that.

Yep. And hopefully we'll do it again. 

Adam Coelho: [00:05:35] Yeah. 

Pretty wild.  So I'd love to have you share with the audience what you've been up to since then. 

Keith Horan: [00:05:41] Yeah. Great. So I  I had founded the mindfulness community and that had launched in a sort of test phase in  January last year, 2020.

And it was just amazing timing that as it became the case, that I could no longer teach physical courses. And,  you can see in the background here, I'm in our yoga and meditation studio. We had loads of plans to have courses and, retreats and workshops and things here. As that all stopped, I had already been developing this online community.

So 2020 was all about really focusing on that. So  we launched the full version in the summer, and so we're six months or so into into that business, into that whole model. And it's been busy and really interesting.  

Adam Coelho: [00:06:32] That's awesome to hear.  So give a little overview of what the mindfulness community is and  how it's evolved. 

Keith Horan: [00:06:40] Yeah. So it came about because I could see a need in the. In the, some of the people that I had taught the MBSR course to where they loved the course, they got a really nice practice going, but then struggled to maintain it.

 I'd meet them six months later and they wouldn't, they'd find it hard. Like I was finding, 80- 90% of people actually saying I'd love to be still practicing, but I'm not. So that sort of gave me the idea that actually ongoing support is needed.  Then I was reflecting back on my own original training, like how my first years of practice went and realizing, like I had a guide, I had a teacher that I could interact with.

I had a community of people.  I had really in-depth training and there was all this sort of support  that I think often isn't there for someone, if they're trying to meditate on their own or based on a book or an app, or they've taken a really good program, but they mightn't have follow on support.

 I was really thinking, okay, can I develop something online that can meet that meet? And that was really the motivation. That was the vision for the mindfulness community. So far, I'm really happy with how that's coming into life.  We've now got a growing community and so far  people within the mindfulness community are practicing. The interactions really good. They're staying. So they seem to really enjoy it. So all that side is really positive. 

Probably my challenges  last year is that I spent so much effort and time trying to make it as good as I possibly could, including  improving and developing as I got feedback that I really didn't have the energy and time to do enough marketing. So that's actually what I realized coming towards the end of last year.  The balance of that I need to adjust and I need to put more of my energy into that. I need to grow the community and I need to get the word out there.  Personality wise, I can see that's challenging for me.

So that's what I need to work on. And that's that's where I'm at right now. I'm jumping into 2021  with that hope to bring this more into the world and just let people know it's there.

Very cool.  How many people  are in the community now? 

We're  60 something at the moment. Which is decent. It's probably slightly behind what I was aiming for. But actually. To have that number of regular customers who really love what they're getting from the community and the word of mouth is really good.

So actually, I sometimes probably don't stop to Pat myself on the back and say, okay, you know what? This was pretty decent. Yeah. You're managing to get a lot done. So that's where we're at. And then, I would hope that by the summer of this year, we'll hit the kind of numbers that mean that the communities at break even, and then can grow and can be a really sustainable a sustainable type of work for me and potentially even a sustainable model of how mindfulness teachers could support their communities, the people they are teaching  and have a really nice livelihood where they're managing to  work in the area that they're passionate about. 

Adam Coelho: [00:09:51] Very cool. As you know, I'm a big fan of that idea. We've talked about that quite a bit. So 

Keith Horan: [00:09:58] from the start, so which has been really helpful.

Yeah. 

Adam Coelho: [00:10:00] I think the way you're approaching it makes sense. You're figuring out what the need is, what the model is, what the business model is. And. You can't just jump to step two where you're selling it to  other mindfulness teachers until you've actually proven it out yourself. 

I can also relate to the path stopping to take in the good and pat yourself on the back 60 people is that's awesome. Is that 60 paid members? 

Keith Horan: [00:10:24] Yeah. That's where we're at.

Adam Coelho: [00:10:26] Wow, fantastic. 

Keith Horan: [00:10:28] Yeah. It is it's not like the numbers I was hoping for. You get this idea in your head and then suddenly you don't acknowledge what you've done, 

Adam Coelho: [00:10:36] I know the feeling.

Yeah, it's really good. And we've now got a strategy in place  to introduce more people and to help get the story out there by talking with our members. I had a chat with a member this week and she's  really excited to try and tell the story of what she's gotten from the mindfulness community and share that.

By doing that, I think it'll, yeah, it should help it to grow. 

I think those type of testimonials. If you can get a video testimonial like this or something like that becomes like a perfect   piece of content that you can use in emails and in marketing, in video ads or whatever.

Keith Horan: [00:11:15] Yeah. That's it. That's the plan. That's where we're going and also creating more content myself.  I'm now at a place where. A lot of the time I have to spend on the tech side is less than so I can spend more time creating content like that starting a podcast. 

Adam Coelho: [00:11:30] So which of the  content and features have you found people are  gravitating towards? 

Keith Horan: [00:11:36] We've tested to see and tracked what are people most interested in?

I would say the main thing is live meditations.  I set up, Literally in the room where I'm now, and let's say Friday morning, 7 30: I'm guiding a practice and there's a bunch of people joining me live.  Then they're also recorded and available for people later that day.

So that regular structure of offering, live meditations that seems to be for people, especially starting out, having that feeling of not practicing on your own. I think that's really helpful. And there's a familiarity that comes from, seeing the same person, guiding the practice.

They get a wave in the morning. We might interact in the forum later in the day, and there's a feeling of relationship and and kind of growth and development in it. So I would say that the guided practices, whether they're live or for people taking them later that same day,  I think that's the central aspect of the community because.

I really have the idea and the philosophy that  the practice and a regular practice is what leads to results.  It's trying to make it as easy and enjoyable for people to get a practice going. So that would be the first aspect. 

The other thing would be training. So again, some of the trainings are live and some of them are recorded.

 This is going back to how I first learned to meditate, where there was really good in depth training on, all these different aspects how to cope with restlessness or how to deal with a really anxious mind or how to deal with a sleepy mind and, going in depth into all these different areas.

For new members and especially for people who haven't had a practice before, some of those basic courses just give them, really good skills and tools so that they're not, sitting on the cushion feeling, they can't do it or getting to a place where they're stuck and not knowing what the next step is.

So we have courses on that level and then also courses on specific life challenges.  So for example, the next course is on coping with anxiety. So we'll go in depth into anxiety and the types of mindfulness practices and practices during the day, that can be really helpful there. And so we'll look at specific challenges like that.

We do a lot of courses on self-compassion. Which has become, something that's really important for me just over the last five years or so. And so trying to help people that from the start with their mindfulness practice, so that there's an acceptance and a kind of gentleness as we develop the practice.

So the live meditations, the teachings. And then if I pick another aspect, I'd say the community, the courtyard. Which is our forum, where the conversations happen, people get to know each other and motivate each other. And we run challenges like say next Monday we're doing a five day challenge where the challenge for the community has meditated for five days in a row.

Plus they'll have this extra surprise practice to do in the middle of the day and there'll be conversation around it and a bit of energy.  It just sorta helps people. It takes a little bit less willpower to do a practice when you feel you're part of this bigger group doing it. So it's trying to bring that to them.

 There's lots of other smaller features, but I would say they're the kind of core things that we build the mindfulness community around. 

Adam Coelho: [00:15:05] Got it. So this idea of live meditations  has proved really big in helping people keep to the practice because they know you're going to be there they show up to practice with you and that kind of keeps the momentum, keeps the relationship?

Keith Horan: [00:15:21] Yeah, I think what I find is that people try to do that, even if it's just a couple of times during the week.  Then other days they may work away on their own with maybe their own guidance or one of the recorded audios or recorded videos.

But people seem to really like to get that little sense of meditating with someone. And I think because they get to know me very well and as much as possible, I get to know the community member there's this sort of There's a real feeling of connection. So it's not that they're just watching some person they're watching someone that they have a relationship with.

And if there's something they're stuck on or are, I don't know, unsure about, or even just want to share, there's a private section in the courtyard so they can just drop me a message and I get back to them and we have a little bit of an interaction and it's not even that people use that an awful lot, but I think by feeling that they have that access, then they can go deeper into the practice. 

Adam Coelho: [00:16:28] That's awesome to hear.  I'm curious about those 60 people. Are they all people who you've taught before in MBSR or is there a mix of people you have and have not?

Keith Horan: [00:16:43] Yeah, that's interesting. I'd have to look at the numbers. I'd say two thirds are people that I have some connection to beforehand or over the last year.

I've taught them. Like I met someone today I worked with her sister and she heard about me through that. And so there's some kind of there's some kind of link like that. That's about two thirds of the people. But what became really interesting was where I was seeing people sign up, who I've absolutely no connection.

They've come across me through maybe a blog that I've written or I send out a weekly email every Wednesday. I called Keith's journal where I  write about how my own mindfulness practices unfolding. It's not very theoretical or academic or something.

It's very much, what am I noticing? What am I working on? What am I struggling with? And there's several thousand people actually get that every week. From that there's been a good number of people have joined the mindfulness community. So I think it's it's a matter of people hearing my style of teaching and  yeah, just the way I teach and the way I try to practice.

And then if it appeals to them, then a certain percentage are curious and  are ready to maybe try and develop a practice or continue a practice and they join in. We've had members from the States we've members from Canada, the UK.

It was  a big moment for me when the first person joined who he had no connection to. And I didn't know, because that kind of said, okay I'm promoting this on a very small scale so far. If I increase that. Then there's lots of potential to, to build this to a place where it's really sustainable and a really nice community.

I have a sort of vision in mind of building it to the right size. Theres a certain size I want this company to be, and there's a certain size. I want the community to be where I think it'll really work for me as a business and work for the members.  That's the goal. Grow to that point and then really enjoy the journey with these people.

Adam Coelho: [00:18:45] That's fantastic. My ears perked up when you said you have several thousand people receiving Keith's journal every week. 

Keith Horan: [00:18:53] Yeah. 

Adam Coelho: [00:18:53] How'd you manage that? 

Keith Horan: [00:18:55] Yeah, I'll be more specific. I'm heading for just under 3000 at the moment. 

Adam Coelho: [00:19:01] Wow. How did you build a 3000 person email list. I enjoy reading and I read it every week.

I like that. It's super short. And I guess just while we're talking about it, where can people sign up for this if they're interested? 

Keith Horan: [00:19:15] Great. Yeah. Actually my website is the easiest to Keithhoran.com. Perfect. Yeah, you can sign up there. Yeah. How did that come about? I suppose there was a few phases where a lot of people joined.

One was last summer I was guiding some live meditations for free while I was working from home. It was the first round of the lockdown. So a few times a week I was offering  free sessions and I put that out on Facebook and a lot of people joined and then and ended up signing up for the email from there.

 After that then I would have developed some lead magnets, like some really useful guides. There was one on how self-compassion can really help your practice. So that guide in particular did incredibly well where there's a huge number of people downloaded it and then we're on the weekly email. So it was doing things like that.  Just started that weekly email and I thought it might be interesting, but I'm finding over 30% of the people on the list open it every week.  Every week I'm getting emails back and I'll do a quick response again, and it starts to create a little bit of a connection.

I'm thinking of a lady that I was speaking to yesterday from Ottawa who joined , Janet.  It was through a chat over and back from one of these weekly emails that, her attention was caught and  we just had a connection.  She joined and she's been a great member of the community since then.

That's fantastic. Yeah.  It's not very easy to build a 3000 person email list, so good on ya. That's awesome. 

 It's really interesting to hear that people are hitting reply and reaching out to you. That's one thing that I've been trying to cultivate with this podcast. It's a pretty lonely thing to just do this and then put things out in the world and not get that much feedback or anything like that. So for anyone who's listening, I would love to hear from you.  If you'd like to join my email list, you can do so mindfulfire.org. And please hit reply. You can reach out to me anytime. I would love to hear from you. 

 Yeah. I agree with you. Sometimes it can feel like we're writing into the void or speaking into the void.

Adam Coelho: [00:21:29] Yeah. , 

Keith Horan: [00:21:30] I think sometimes people feel, Oh, this person's really busy. They're not really going to respond or something. But actually my experience of I love to see someone respond to me and I'm so happy to make a connection and and reply to them. And I know you'd be the same.

Adam Coelho: [00:21:45] Absolutely.  Cause it's Oh yeah, people are actually getting value from this. Like they are there. There's someone actually receiving this email and it's just really nice to hear back from people.  So I invite that along. If you are listening to this, let me know what you think. 

You are going to start seeing that happening now.  Because the motivation behind this is to try and be helpful.

Keith Horan: [00:22:07] And, I know your podcast is incredibly helpful and I know the work I'm doing is the same, but it's it's very reassuring when someone tells you. 

Adam Coelho: [00:22:15] Especially when your love language is words of affirmation. Like mine is. So anyways, I digress.

 That's all very interesting with the community growing. As you look forward, thinking about the financial independence aspect of this podcast, the career aspect of this, how do you envision the mindfulness community becoming a larger part of your livelihood? 

Keith Horan: [00:22:44] Yeah, so it's a challenge.  At the moment it's running on a loss. Like the costs, I have to keep the community running, aren't being met.

So that's the reality.  That's what I was saying. I think I'm on track by the summer that it will be moving into profit.  Then it's the type of model, where the costs aren't much higher as the members increase. So that's the benefit of it. So once I reach a certain point, it should be a really nice, sustainable business.

 I think I mentioned in the last podcast I have some other income streams from  a commercial building  we bought years ago and renovated.  So I've revenue from other places and that still takes some of my time to run that. So as the mindfulness community grows, I'm looking forward to  transitioning to only doing that and making that my only source of income.  I'm pretty hopeful.  I think it's realistic. I  was probably too ambitious at the start and maybe a bit naive. I thought I'd be there by now, but I'm getting there and I'm stubborn about it.

 Really want to bring this, I dunno, I really want to create this and make it a thing that lasts in the world.  Yeah, I'll keep plugging away. I'll keep trying to be creative and find ways of doing it. That's the goal  that this is supporting me and our family financially.  Probably in that as well is as it develops, I also need to be careful that I'm outsourcing some of the work, some of which I'm doing already, but I need to watch that because It could easily become something where I'm  successful, but I'm working way too many hours  to make it happen.

 I tend to think a lot in terms of freedom.  When you talk about financial independence,  I really value freedom. I think it's fine that for a certain phase, I'll have to really work quite hard to make this happen.

But the longer term goal say by the end of this year would be that that it's successful. And also that  I've the type of workload that is in balance with my life.  So that's pretty much the goal. . 

Adam Coelho: [00:24:47] That's awesome. Can you talk a little bit more about your thoughts about freedom?

Keith Horan: [00:24:53] Yeah. It's funny. It's something my wife and I talk a lot about. When we're making decisions, we always assess them in terms of this feeling of freedom. We really value freedom. And I'm really lucky that she's the same. Maybe that would be in terms of having an experience, for example, rather than buying an extra thing. 

Like there was even a question I could change my car. I had that kind of daydream. Oh, it'd be nice to change my car. There's an electric car, I think would be really interesting. On one level I could change my car, but on another level it's  if I didn't, how much extra freedom do I have  by just keeping my perfectly lovely care, as things are.

Once I looked at it in those terms,  I'm not attracted to changing the care at all. That's actually  a hassle to do right now. I'm not going to do that . Okay. That might mean that I can outsource more of the work sooner with that revenue.

And again, there's more freedom. This there's time. There's opportunity when the world opens up to travel. All those types of things. Our symbol of freedom for Amanda, my wife, and I, is  a few years ago she sold her car. She had a pretty nice car and she sold it and bought a VW van Volkswagen van.

And we got it converted. It's got a little kitchen in the back and a bed down below and the top pops up and you can sleep in the top as well.  That's our symbol of freedom. I think it's the best thing we ever bought because, it just gave so much freedom. Even during the lockdown, we can drive to places and make a cup of tea.  Our big hobby for the last  year and a half is swimming in the sea, even in winter.

 So this van becomes our kind of, we're just moving around the place and this fun van that kind of doesn't make sense because, we have to drive this van everywhere, but it's really fun.  It's not like a good status move or something, but it's a great move if you want to have fun.

So we rock up to the beach and get to make tea for people and run in and swim and get changed in the back of the van. It's great. 

Adam Coelho: [00:26:54] That's fantastic. That is something that another guest, Laurie Stephens on episode four and five of the podcast.

She herself has a sprinter van that is converted into a little mini RV. And  that is the symbol of freedom for her as well. They can just throw a bag in the back of it and go into the woods and go camping or go to the beach. Yeah, that sounds fantastic. 

Keith Horan: [00:27:21] Yeah.   It's always nice to have these frameworks where you can weigh things up and say this is a nice thing to buy or what am I losing?  If I have that money instead what's the trade-off, what freedom have I got? What experiences are possible?  I think it's interesting.

 I don't know if this is true or not, but sometimes when I'm talking to people who are younger than me they seem to have  that feeling of  freedom, whereas maybe my generation and older, buying the property, the cars, the status symbol seem to be more of a, an obvious thing to do.

I have this sense that's been questioned nowadays and people are being really skillful and choosing other ways. And I really like to see it. 

Adam Coelho: [00:28:02] I've heard that millennials especially really value experiences more than things. I certainly can relate to that myself. 

I saw some post on Facebook the other day of a guy. It was a picture of his wife at a Cartier jewelry shop buying like a really nice thing. And he was like, we did it. We finally did it.  10 years ago I set a goal of buying my wife, this Cartier diamond crusted blah-blah-blah and we made it. And my thing's coming soon. It's this car it's souped up it's this and it's that.

And I'm  thinking. Okay, good for you. That's exciting if that's what's important to you. Cool. But I'm just thinking I can't imagine doing that. I'm a little cheap, but at the same time, like just the trade off. When I was a little kid, I was  really into cars and  Ferrari's and things like that.

And I'm like, when I'm rich, I'm going to have a Ferrari. I can't imagine spending a quarter million dollars on a car. It's just not worth it to me.  So it was just interesting to be so in this idea of like frugalness and the financial independence pursuit, and then seeing somebody whose pursuit was to get to a point where they could buy a very expensive thing.

For me,  it doesn't make sense, but I guess to each their own. 

Keith Horan: [00:29:26] Yeah.  Tend to see the world the same way as you, but  not everyone does. And that's fine, too. 

Adam Coelho: [00:29:32] Yeah, exactly. Got to keep Cartier in business, although I don't think they're struggling. 

One thing that you mentioned is this idea of self-compassion and you said, compassion has been a bigger and bigger part of your practice over the last five years. I'm finding that as well in my life, self-compassion specifically. Can you talk a little bit more about why compassion is so important now and in your life and in the world in general?

Keith Horan: [00:30:05] My original sort of traditional practice had a very strong compassion element in it. Which was amazing. The thing though that I found was in doing all this compassion work. So it's  maybe generating phrases and visualizing a person you care about or a number of people and thinking, may you be well and may be happy and phrases like that.

I found it really powerful. But somehow I wasn't really directing it towards myself at all. I was the person like standing in the cold and pitcuring "I hope you're all great", but  somehow wasn't including myself.  It was only when I  actually started learning about self-compassion and went on a retreat with them, Chris Gurmer and Kristin Neff, a few years ago that I realized, Oh, I'm actually really harsh to myself. I don't treat myself with the same compassion that I would treat another person at all. So that  insight was a real turning point where then I started to realize, okay, I don't have the habit of treating myself with compassion and it is a habit and there's ways of developing it.

 I became really interested in that, doing that for myself. And now that's where I teach from, because I can see for people that it's. I dunno. It's they feel a relief when they hear it that yeah we should treat ourselves with kindness. It's possible to learn how to speak towards ourselves, with kindness, treat ourselves with kindness and, automatically be able to tune into where we're at and become skilled for that, knowing what we need.

 That's been amazing for me and I'm seeing that for people that I'm teaching. And I'm seeing that more broadly.  A few years ago, I was starting to see the word self care up here a lot.  Then maybe in the last two years, it's becoming more subtle and this idea of self-compassion and looking deeper and looking at how we speak to ourselves and why we speak that way and how we can gradually  shift that. 

For me, that's  the cutting edge of where mindfulness is at.  Bringing in this practice of mindfulness, so with the awareness and then this gentleness of the self-compassion approach. So I really like it. I'm happy to see it.

How about for you? Where are you at with self-compassion ? Is it part of your practice or part of your interest? 

Adam Coelho: [00:32:27] It's certainly part of my interest and becoming a larger part of my practice.  Feel like practicing mindfulness, through mindfulness meditation really allowed me to bring awareness to the fact of the negative self-talk, to the fact that I'm constantly talking trash about myself in my head. " It's never good enough." "You're not doing it right."  All these stories that are going through my head. For most of my life, I had no idea about it and it was there all the while. But turning down the volume on everything else and just focusing on awareness of the breath, noticing when my mind wanders and then the story that comes up when I noticed that my mind has wandered, "Oh, you're doing it wrong.", "You're so bad at meditation.", "You're a failure", whatever. Those are just thoughts too.  So bringing that awareness to that every time it arises with an open kind and curious attitude really has helped me ease up on that.

Notice when it's happening and just up, that's not useful. Let me let it go. So that's the start of it for me.  As my practices progressed. I've  done more specific practice on loving kindness, compassion.  I lead a Tuesday meditation at Google for people all around North America.

And we usually finish with some level of loving kindness, meditation, because people like it, and it just feels good. What I've been thinking about is  I want that to be my default.  To some degree I give people the benefit of the doubt. But I want it to be my default, that when I meet somebody, when I come to somebody on the street, whether I'm talking to them or not be may they be happy?

 I've joked about this in the past. Not necessarily on the podcast. I've tried to practice what I call Rondo love and kindness, which is essentially wishing well to random people on the street. Just see someone on the bus.  May you be happy? And I think that's a great practice for just orienting your mind towards compassion.

So that's how I'm trying to do it in a very practical way, because I feel better when I do it.  That, and then more of a formal practice as well. 

Keith Horan: [00:34:49] Nice. Yeah. I liked that. Just what did you call it? Rat  

Adam Coelho: [00:34:52] Rando loving-kindness to randos. 

Keith Horan: [00:34:55] Yeah.

 I remember originally being taught a practice where you'd even do that with your breathing. Like  seeing a person and as you breathe in thinking, I want to take away your suffering, on the in breath and on the out-breath, I want to give you happiness.  

All these things are transforming us in a sort of gentle, slow way. They're transforming us in a good way . Yeah, it's cool. You're going down that road. 

I think initially with the massive burst of mindfulness and MBSR. There was a comfort straightaway with mindfulness and attention and concentration and all of these things.

But loving kindness and compassion, weren't really in that first wave in the, it's actually built into the practice, but in terms of the conversation, it wasn't really there. So it's really nice to see it now. And one of the things I love to teach is around changing our tone towards ourselves and using touch.

 So I'm always doing this thing where, I'll have my hand at my heart as I'm guiding a practice  at a certain stage in it to help people place a hand at the heart or at the stomach or on their shoulder somewhere that feels supportive. 

Adam Coelho: [00:36:04] I agree. I think the touch , we take care of our kids. We take care of our work.

We take care of everything with our hands. And so to direct that to ourselves is really powerful. 

Keith Horan: [00:36:15] It's very powerful.  For me, I think there's even a Overcoming stereotype thing as well. Like I grew up in a loving sport. Internalizing of a way that a guy is supposed to be.  I love this feeling of Oh, here I am now talking about love and compassion and the hand and the heart and yeah. But I needed it. I started doing it a few years ago and I actually needed it.  So I don't really mind how I look, I know what it's for. 

Adam Coelho: [00:36:40] I'm going to be doing a podcast interview next week with two guys named ed. Both of them are named Ed. They've wrote a book called Reinventing Masculinity.  We're going to be talking about that concept as well. And compassion is a huge part of their approach. So it be very interesting. 

Keith Horan: [00:36:59] Yeah. I'd like to hear 

Adam Coelho: [00:37:00] So let's shift gears a little bit and talk about. The podcast. So I understand that you have a new podcast.

Can you tell me a little bit about?

Keith Horan: [00:37:08] It's called Keith and the mindfulness community.  I've dreamed of doing this for about three years, actually almost did it, like almost started a few years ago. But it just didn't work out. I was obviously daunted by it. I think actually being on your podcast was very helpful. Like you see from the inside, Oh, this is what it's like. Oh, I'm chatting with Adam. This is pretty comfortable. So mostly it's me talking. Pulling out some stories. I like to tell the story. So some stories from my practice, how I struggled with something or how I was taught something and then trying to make it really practical. So each episode is about they're short they're like 20 minutes  I usually begin with something relating to a challenge I've gone through or dealing with, or someone else's dealing with. Somewhere in the middle we drop in like a two minute practice. So  very informal,  the person could listening, could be driving or walking or sitting down and like a two minute practice and then finish with something very practical, pulling the story into what would be the practical sort of application.

 Some of the episodes coming is on coping with overwhelm. Actually a lot of what we were talking about really effective ways of using self compassion to help us when we're overwhelmed and self-critical. After that, there's a really nice episode and it's a topic I love around belonging, just around this experience of feeling that we don't belong or this feeling of belonging and how I learned to certain, again, self-compassion techniques to move more towards this feeling of belonging. So it's  those kind of topics.  My style would tend to be practical and down to earth.  It's grounded in the training I got over the years, but mostly grounded in just my own experience of  a few decades of practice. So it's just trying to make that relatable and something that people can, can benefit from. 

So that's that's the general format of the podcast. My plan is that every four or five episodes, I turn it around and interview someone about their practice.

In some cases there'll be members of the mindfulness community. In some cases there'll be like fellow teachers.  I have a certain Adam,  who's living in New Jersey that I've really hoping to do an episode with. So yeah, that'd be great to have you on the podcast. 

Adam Coelho: [00:39:30] I'd love to, I've never been a guest on a podcast yet. That would be fun. 

Yeah, that sounds really interesting. What's your goal with the podcast? 

Keith Horan: [00:39:40] I suppose it comes from the first thing is I love listening to podcasts. I find them a really great way of learning. It's a very intimate kind of thing. You have this feeling of talking directly to one person. Think it can be a nice way for me to share some of the things I learned along the way.

So that's really my hope with it. In terms of my work, I think it's a great way to reach lots of people. I suppose I have this sense  If people would like to join the mindfulness community, it really helps if they have a sense of who I am and whether  the way I try to practice and live is aligned with what they're looking for.

So I think it gives it a chance for people  to test things out. See if what I'm saying, resonating with them.  So that's the idea. I also think it'd be really fun. I  was a secondary school teacher for so long and I used to teach 32 or 33 classes a week.

 On some level, I think I miss that.  Sometimes in speaking my own ideas get clearer. 

 I had a few rounds of trying to do the first episode because initially it didn't feel that natural to me. I was in a room where I couldn't see out.  I adjusted a few things. I sit upstairs now where I can see out the can be cars driving by or people walking in the distance.  I have a feeling that I'm not alone in a room. Because I am talking to myself, it's mostly just me. I've gotten used to it. 

Did you find us as you went through the episodes, it became easier?

Adam Coelho: [00:41:07] Absolutely. Yeah, the first few, you were the first one you know this well, but I was just, I still am just figuring it out. But I do feel more comfortable and less pressure to get it right . I'm really trying to let curiosity guide me this year.  That's why I'm asking you random questions that we didn't talk about because I'm just curious about them.  So coming from that place, I feel makes it a little bit easier.  Certainly as I do more, it becomes more natural and more fun because you can let go of  efforting and just get into the flow a little bit more.

Keith Horan: [00:41:42] I'm looking forward to hearing you interview your dad. How did that go? 

Adam Coelho: [00:41:46] That was awesome. That was a really great opportunity.  Just to hear his thoughts on financial independence and just to hear his story. I've heard most of it a bunch of times, but to hear it start to finish and in a way that other people who don't know him could learn from or enjoy was really something special. It was really just super fun to do that.  I'm going to interview my mom as well at some point and I think we'll focus on resilience for that one because they've had a, they've had a hell of a year this year and they're  very resilient. 

Keith Horan: [00:42:29] Yeah, it just strikes me as a, it's like a lovely thing to be able to do.

 I have the idea to to interview my mom because she went through me being into this Tibetan, Buddhism, very unusual stuff for the late nineties in Ireland. I think she was totally unsure about all that.  Then a bunch of years later, where, when she was dealing with some difficulties and actually really around minding her own mum, She she took an MBSR course.

She took a mindfulness course herself.  So for the last 10 years or so, we've had this shared interest in mindfulness .  She's like my VIP member in the mindfulness community. She's like my biggest supporter. She's always on the live teachings and asking questions and she's great.

 I'd love the chance to interview her . It's maybe a different way of getting to know your parents' story. 

Adam Coelho: [00:43:18] Absolutely. Yeah. I wanted to document, those stories in a way.  I thought, why not put it out there? Other people can learn from this.

Other people have huge changes in their life and could learn from this story of my dad. 

One thing on the podcast that is interesting for yours is that it's mostly you talking. That's something that I've wanted to do a solo episode, but I haven't done it.

I haven't gotten up the courage to do it. And I don't know why. Guess I've become more comfortable just asking questions and learning from the guests. But I think that this year I'm hoping to bring more of my experience, my knowledge, my thoughts on these topics of mindfulness and financial independence into the conversation.

 I do it a little bit here and there in the episodes that have that already exist, but I'd love to do it a little bit more. 

Keith Horan: [00:44:19] Yeah. It makes sense for you because your listeners through the episodes are getting to know you. I'm sure they'd like to hear more about  directly from you what your thoughts are. I've found just in the review that I've recorded it helps  to make the episodes shorter. 

So I think when I do an interview, it'll be a much longer like an hour or something. But I allowed myself to make the solo episodes quite short, just so I don't feel under pressure.

Is that something, so you're going to try that this year?

Adam Coelho: [00:44:49] I hope so. I guess if you're listening to this and that would be helpful, let me know, respond to my email, let me know. You'd like to hear some solo episodes. It would really be encouraging. 

One of the funny things is that I just got going. I had your episode recorded for a while and then a friend of mine, actually,  Frazer on episode eight was like, Hey wait, so you already have an episode ready to go and you haven't put it out there? I'm like, yeah. I thought I needed to have an introduction, who am I, why am I doing this?

So I haven't actually done that yet.  I think that would be a great a great thing to do for the podcast in this year. Here's what, we're what we're doing. Here's where we're going. And here's why I'm doing it. 

Keith Horan: [00:45:30] Cool. When I'm, when I interview you, I'm going to draw the story out too. Cause people would love to hear, all the search inside yourself teaching and training and it's so interesting. 

Adam Coelho: [00:45:40] So let's shift gears and talk a little bit more about practice.  Tell me what's on your mind regarding your mindfulness practice. 

Keith Horan: [00:45:49] Something that  shifted in my practice in the last year, I had this feeling of needing to find a teacher or a mentor.  I've mentioned before, for the first 10 or 12 years of my practice, I was in that  structure.  Then for almost the last 10, I really wasn't.  I had mindfulness people who came to my classes and I've peers who I studied with, but I didn't really have someone to  have some feeling of accountability or something like that.

Started to think about that and I was listening to different podcasts. I had no idea where would I find someone, how will I choose someone?  I don't really want to go back to a traditional more Buddhist style of practice. So how would I find someone.

 I've had these two sort of extensive trainings, the Tibetan Buddhist style, and then the science-based secular mindfulness, even masters style.  I'm not sure I had integrated them very well in my head. I was a missing part. So anyway, I was listening to a podcast and heard a speaker and listen to him on a few different podcasts.

 His name is Hokai Sobol. He's from Croatia. So I reached out to him. The process then became that every  three weeks or so we do an hour long zoom. We talk about practice and we do like a couple of emails in between, but I found the process of doing that extremely helpful.

 I would say can think of my practice in the early years, I made an awful lot of progress . I was practicing quite intensely.  Then like you mentioned, the years of having younger kids, it was harder to, it just the time and the attention is drawn in so many different ways.

 I've had other phases where I can see there was a lot of growth and then again more plateaus. That's been my experience of the 20 years; phases of growth and phases of not much happening.

So I had that feeling of I'm teaching, I'm speaking all the time and what growth is happening for me?  Also to try and make sure that growth is continuing.  By reaching out to Hokai and through that process I found my practice has developed more this year in the last say 12 months then than in maybe the previous four or five years.

 It's just something I put out there. I don't think it's commonplace nowadays, that people do this; connect with someone and enter that type of relationship. But I think it can be really interesting.  Some of the sort of practical things, it immediately meant that my practice just like time on the cushion wise became more consistent.

Because you have this sense of like someone is saying " what's realistic for you?".  I hear myself saying this is how much I'm going to practice and how often.  Once you hear yourself saying that to another person, there's an extra sort of layer of accountability.  I was being realistic about it. It's completely the right amount for me and my life at the moment. It's not too much.  I found it took less willpower to get to the cushion by having this sort of relationship. 

I started to notice little things like in one of the zooms, how he sits and how he sets up his meditation space. It made me realize, Oh, in my early days, I used to put a lot of attention to the space and be really diligent about how I'd enter the room and be ready to practice.  I was  disciplined.  In recent years I just flopped down on a cushion and I have a blanket and I'll half fold the blanket afterwards, but I'm not too careful. I started realized, God, I've, I'm meditating, physically, the space is a bit like a messy teenager or something. 

 So just these little things, nudged my practice, so  now I'm more careful about how I come into it,  what my mentality is like. And again, that helps the concentration and the practice. And so things like that. 

This was just a personal thing for me that I hadn't really integrated the different types of training I had done.

He was able to direct me towards practices that would  help with that in all these different ways. I'm not saying that it's something that everyone should do.  It's not something that I felt like doing at all for some other years, but it's just interesting that there, there can be opportunities to go deeper into practice, but it might need a little bit of support.  It's parallel a little bit to TMC where, with TMC, the mindfulness community, I have the sense of people need support. They don't need an awful lot, but some interaction is really good.  In my case, working with Hokai it's  rejuvenated my practice quite a bit and  I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes from here.

Adam Coelho: [00:50:25] Very cool. What is Hokai's title? Is he  a mindfulness coach? Is he a life coach? Is he an MBSR teacher? 

Keith Horan: [00:50:35] Very interesting. Because again as mindfulness is out there in the world and meditation, and there's more people practicing and learning.  It's no longer in this a more formal , traditional religious settings or something. And so I guess Hokai would be part of a new wave of that where I'm not sure what he'd call himself. Mentor is the word that comes to mind to me.  I think he's based some of how he works on the work of another really good teacher called Ken McCloud,  who also had developed this way of mentoring students and working.

It's almost  consultant model, whereby, this person's an expert and you schedule a time and you have this interaction and with very clear and safe boundaries of how to do that and how to engage in it. It's almost professional version of something that happened for thousands of years in the meditation world.

So it's interesting. Mentor is the word that I would think of and it sorta makes sense that if I'm trying to learn a musical instrument,  I can progress to a certain level on my own. I can progress by playing with other people, but maybe there'll be times when I'd really benefit from time with somebody who's that few steps further. So I think it's just interesting.  I just bring it up because I wonder whether  the same as like the mindfulness community is maybe taking people who have developed a practice or even are starting a practice and really supporting them.

Maybe there's times in our mindfulness or meditation journey that  an appropriate way of interacting with one person could be really good.

Adam Coelho: [00:52:17] One thing that you mentioned at the beginning is that  last year you had a whole slew of plans and ideas for how to host retreats and workshops and things like that in your studio there. 

 Something I've been thinking a lot about is, wanting to do something like that down the road. I'm all about creating opportunity through connection and creating community. That's why I was so interested in your name tag that said the mindfulness committee. So I'm just curious as to your, how you go about that. What those things look like.

Keith Horan: [00:52:55] In the past, I've done loads of things. I've had like informal drop-ins once a week where there'll be meditation groups. That's before we had this particular space.  In more recent years we've leaned towards my wife and I running workshops on a Saturday.

 The people who would come to that for me mostly would have been people who had done MBSR courses with me, but not only. I tended to not be able to offer as many of them as I like so they'd fill up really quickly.  I would give priority to people who studied with me, but sometimes, I'd open it out wider. That model worked really well.

Actually when things open up again, I'll go back to that.  I really enjoy that in person teaching and the interaction, just to keep a sense of the full, over and back aspect of teaching.

 The other thing I would be thinking of is that the mindfulness community would be really enhanced by having in-person gatherings as well.  Again, we would have planned something this summer for that, but it'll probably be delayed at this stage. Whenever things are okay again, I think it'd be really nice to add that as an option for people.  Then people get to meet each other in person and that helps them to connect online a little bit more deeply. But I think it's really enjoyable to you've had this experience though from leading the the sessions in Google.

How does that go? Do you enjoy that type of teaching?

Adam Coelho: [00:54:18] For sure. Absolutely.  That's the real driver of this for me. Those in-person sessions where people can come together and talk face to face and practice, mindful, listening, practice, meditating all of those things. You can really interact a lot better and pick up on the energy in the room. I think that in-person piece is valuable. 

I'm about to teach my first Virtual search inside yourself, which is going to be a four hour half day version of the course. I'm going to teach that next Friday with another future guest on the podcast, actually.

My next question you already answered, which was, how does this fit into the mindfulness community?

Keith Horan: [00:55:00] That was always the picture that, we'd probably start with  a big annual gathering and.  Was involved in another community, which is, a business related online platform where they organize this gathering actually a new castle in Northern England. I went to it and it was amazing. It really enhanced their online community . So I can see how that can really work. 

I'm not sure when it'll happen, but I picture like a gathering maybe in a nice area hotel, just outside Dublin, like somewhere easy access and and see you get to meet people together.  Then offer more  things like that as time goes on. For me, that would be really important because I suppose the people in the community would have a better sense of me than I would of them.  So for me to get that sense of like really having a meal and having conversations and getting to listen more, I think that would really help.

That would actually help me enjoy the whole process more as well, I think. Like we need that over on back. 

Adam Coelho: [00:55:59] What is it like having these type of events in your home ? I think that is your old living room you said, right? 

Keith Horan: [00:56:06] Yeah. That's right. This space here has a separate entrance and a separate place to park. I go through two doors and we're in the other part of our house. So it's pretty close.  It is a balancing act. My wife and I also co-teach off and cause she's a yoga teacher. So there's also figuring out what's comfortable for her.  What we've found has worked for us is that we tend to invite people here for sessions who we already know. In other words, they've done yoga classes with her, or they've studied with me. There a comfort and an ease.  It feels like inviting friends into your home. Then, because part of the days that we offer, when we offer like a Saturday workshop we bring people up into our kitchen and serve them food.

 It's a very intimate thing. So  it would be very difficult to do that with people you've never met before. My wife and I are both introverted. So it would probably be uncomfortable. We've tried doing things in the past and I think it was challenging.

So this is an in between a public and private space. So we treat it like that. Where I've run larger things before, where it's a more open crowd, I book a different venue. So that's sorta how I get around that.  If it was a larger scale again, I'd be looking at, somewhere else. There's something very sweet about people coming here and being in our kitchen and spending time like that together.

 It even changes the feeling of the house.  We're really lucky in that we've a nice house here and use it in service of others and their happiness. It just feels great to do it. But yeah, we're careful that we're not stretching ourselves too much or that it's not too uncomfortable or something.

Adam Coelho: [00:57:48] Yeah, thanks for sharing that . That's definitely something that I've thought about, with this space, with this sunroom and the space or around our home here. Really wanting to build community, even just with people in the neighborhood who want to come and practice and learn and things like that.

Keith Horan: [00:58:07] One thing that might be useful,  I did it the wrong way early enough, whereby for the size of the space. I had a reasonably large number of teachers, some of whom I knew and some of whom I didn't know, and my wife pretty much didn't know any of them.

 They were in the space and then they're all in our kitchen and it was incredibly noisy.  It felt like we had lost our personal space. I remember afterwards chatting with my wife and while the sessions had gone really well  in this space, in the kind of yoga meditation space, it didn't quite feel right that they were all in the kitchen.

 We learned from that, okay, here's how we do it. This is the number of people that we can manage to cope with.  Here's why we need to have a comfort level with them already. It's just checking in with your boundaries and for my wife, checking in with where she is with this.

I think that kind of taught me a lesson. So since then I've been more careful and at the end of those sessions, we check in and it's always been a really positive thing.  When it works well, it feels like you just have a bunch of extra friends and community. It's very joyful.

Adam Coelho: [00:59:13] That's wonderful. What's that number that has, you've settled on. 

Keith Horan: [00:59:18] For this space, it's 10. That's not huge at all. 

Adam Coelho: [00:59:22] It's intimate. 

Keith Horan: [00:59:23] Yeah. We could fit a lot more people and in this room, cause it's pretty big, at least in normal times. But what we found was  to try and do that when you all go for Tea and scones or coffee and fruit salad or whatever we're having for it not to be like too noisy and high stimulus, we found that was about the right level for us.  Because it's such a small number, they always tend to fill out really early.  Which again I suppose is okay, that's fine. It means the people that really want to come as soon as they know it's available, they make sure they get here.

 Thank you for sharing that and appreciate that. And cause yeah, it's something that I'm thinking about often. 

Yeah,  it could be lovely and that space looks great and the access to outside.

Adam Coelho: [01:00:06] Yeah. We got very lucky here. I'm very grateful to have this space and it's wild that I've always wanted to design and build my own house. I've talked about that on the podcast.  

 I visualize what that house looks like and this room is that.  It's even better than I had envisioned.  The beautiful thing is I didn't have to build anything. I just walked in. 

Keith Horan: [01:00:28] That's really efficient, Adam, nicely done.

Adam Coelho: [01:00:31] I think I'll be doing a workshop or something to share my love for this process of envisioning with the podcast at some point.

So let's switch gears now into the Mindful FIRE Final Four. Does that sound good? 

Keith Horan: [01:00:43] That sounds great. Let's do it. 

Adam Coelho: [01:00:44] So the first question is what is your intention heading into 2021?

Keith Horan: [01:00:51] Okay. Off the top of my head. So it's reflecting back on the fact that I got too busy in the run into Christmas.  I was working too much and too many hours on the mindfulness community.  So I feel for me to be able to teach effectively, I really need to hold the line and keep that balance in how much work I do, how much family time I have, how much practice time, how much exercise, all of that. One symbol of that is as much as possible, I'm trying to take Thursdays where I just walk and maybe do some creative work, but I'm away from the office away from my laptop.

 So my intention is to really like, hold the line on having balance in my own life, even though the demands of the mindfulness community are pulling me to do more. I'm just going to try and hold that line. 

Adam Coelho: [01:01:46] Fantastic.  I'm quite aligned with that as well. Mine is I want to be guided by curiosity, but I also want to have ease in my life. I don't want to be overwhelmed. I don't want to be rushing. I don't want to feel like the podcast is another chore that I need to do. It's something fun that I'm doing. I'm learning and growing, and I can do that in an ease full way.

So I'm trying anytime I'm noticing myself getting stressed, just like dropping in the word ease. How can I shift back into a little bit more ease? 

Keith Horan: [01:02:17] Good. Yeah. Wishing you ease for 2021. 

Adam Coelho: [01:02:20] So the second question you've answered before, but we'll see where your head's at now.

 What advice would you give to someone early on their path to financial independence?

Keith Horan: [01:02:32] Yeah. I just think to try and be optimistic and open-minded about maybe finding the circumstances and the work that that you're really passionate about.  From my life, I've been really lucky that my very first job was not something I really was enjoying at all.  I left that and went off and learned to meditate.

 Since then, all the different jobs I've had, whether it's school teaching or I did residential care work or, my work now has been something I love to do rather than just based around finances.  Think that's possible.  Holding to that like you said, envisioning like imagining that and aiming for that.

That's how I tend to think. Yeah. 

Adam Coelho: [01:03:23] Very good advice. Something that we try to focus on this show is really enjoying the journey .  Not just racing to get to a particular dollar number, but really enjoying the journey. Aligning yourself with what you care about, what your purpose is. So I think that's really great advice. 

Keith Horan: [01:03:42] I heard you saying that. Yeah, that's cool.

Adam Coelho: [01:03:43] Would you give to someone getting started with mindfulness and meditation? 

Keith Horan: [01:03:48] I have  a concern that mindfulness and meditation could be seen as like a quick hack or something, some quick thing that you do to adjust something.

I think somebody going towards a meditation practice  with that kind of motivation or context, would find it really difficult and might not enjoy it so much. So I think it's nice to think about it, even from the start,  that mindfulness is  this journey and it can open up a door that allows us to  have a different experience with life or a different experience with how we see ourselves or our environment or our relationships.  I think framing it, or putting it in that context  it becomes easier to think about not giving up when it  doesn't work straight away or being patient with ourselves because we realize actually this is a fairly monumental thing to try and take on looking at how we think about ourselves in the world.

This is a big deal.  Being really patient. Seeing it as this longer journey. It helps us to not give up and to find more joy in it.  Then we start to see the little positive changes, but not needing them straight away. It's a big challenge and it takes a bit of time.

 I think having that context helps. 

Adam Coelho: [01:05:04] I think that's super helpful. Because with all the popular culture, adoption of mindfulness, it's being hawked like a cure, all, like just going to make your life perfect. No, that's not how it works, but  it's the work of a lifetime.

Keith Horan: [01:05:19] Those short-term things are great. And I love that people get, even quick benefits from it. But it helps to think more patient and longer. 

Adam Coelho: [01:05:27] The last question is how can people connect with you online and find out about all the projects you're working on?

Keith Horan: [01:05:33] So the easiest place to find about my work is Keithhoran.com. I've guided practices there. That's also the best place to find out about the mindfulness community. That's a nice introduction.  Yeah head to Keithhoran.com. There's links to all the different social media channels I'm on.

I only recently joined LinkedIn, believe it or not.  I'm finding that really nice. I'm actually connecting with people there. And that seems to be working. So if you'd like to reach out to me that's a good place to do it. You'll find me there.

Adam Coelho: [01:06:03] Awesome. Remind us again, the name of the podcast so people can search in their podcast player for that. 

Keith Horan: [01:06:09] The name of the podcast is Keith And The Mindfulness Community. 

Adam Coelho: [01:06:14] Simple enough. Keith, it's been an absolute pleasure. I've enjoyed this conversation even more than the last one. I think I've gotten a little bit better at asking questions and guiding the conversation. So this was wonderful.

Keith Horan: [01:06:27] Yeah. It's really fun. Really enjoyed it. Looking forward to having you as a guest on my show. It's great to connect. I really appreciate it. 

Adam Coelho: [01:06:35] My pleasure and congrats again on all the success. And Thanks again for joining me on the mindful fire podcast. 

Thanks so much for joining me on today's episode of the mindful fire podcast. I hope you got value from the conversation I had with Keith. And if you did, I'd really appreciate. If you could go over to Apple podcasts and leave a five star written review. These written reviews really make an impact on helping more people find out about the podcast.

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