44 : Creating Space to Design Your Life Through Mindfulness & FIRE Anna Kozenkova

[00:00:04] Adam Coelho: Welcome to the mindful fire podcast, where we explore living mindfully on the path to financial independence and beyond. I'm your host, Adam Coelho and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:15] On today's episode, I'm joined by my friend, Anna Kozenkova.

[00:00:19] Anna joined Google people operations six plus years ago. And she's based in Prague Czech Republic previously, she worked for over 10 years in executive search consulting across Europe. At Google in addition to her core role in recruitment, Anna takes an active part in facilitating Googler to Googler programs. Her passion is people development and creating sustained well-being and psychological safety in teams. For the last five years, she's been an active member of the global search inside yourself, facilitator cohort. 

[00:00:51] She also offers career and life coaching at Google and externally. 

[00:00:55] In this conversation, Anna and I talk a lot about creating space in your life. And Anna shares, how practicing mindfulness allows her to create more space in her life on a day-to-day basis. And on a more macro level allows her to design a life that's aligned with her values and her passion for travel. 

[00:01:11] We explore how this idea of space applies to money as well. And Anna shares her thoughts on money, financial independence, retire early, and how creating this space in your life gives you more choice about how you want to live your life. And she also shares how she's applied these principles in our life to design her life around her number one, passion, which is travel.

[00:01:32] Anna is one of the most well-traveled people that I know having traveled to over 90 countries including a lot of places that most people don't even think to go like Antartica.

[00:01:43] I really enjoyed this conversation with my friend, Anna Kozenkova and she really helped me reflect on my life and some of the things that are most important to me I hope that you enjoyed it as well.

[00:01:53] You can find the full show notes for today's episode, including any resources, links or books mentioned in today's episode at mindfulfire.org/44.

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[00:02:29] Let's jump into today's episode.

[00:02:34] 

[00:02:41] Adam Coelho: Anna, welcome to the mindful fire podcast. I'm so glad to have you here. 

[00:02:45] Anna Kozenkova: Thank you, Adam. I'm thrilled to see you and to be at the podcast as well. 

[00:02:49] Adam Coelho: Yeah, me too. So to begin, I'd love to share how you, and I know each other with the audience.

[00:02:55] Anna and I both work at Google and we met about five years ago now when we both were in the train, the trainer program for Search Inside Yourself one of the most popular courses at Google all about developing emotional intelligence through mindfulness and Anna had flown to mountain view from the Czech Republic where she lives.

[00:03:15] And we went through this two week training program with four months in between. And we really got to know each other as we develop these skills around facilitation and mindfulness. And we became good friends and actually I guess two years ago now almost I was in Portugal on a rotation and the team there wanted to do a session of search inside yourself. And I thought of Anna as someone who loves to travel and might be interested in coming to facilitate the course with me. And we ended up teaching the course in Lisbon together, and we got to have a couple of meals together and she got to meet my son and my wife.

[00:03:55] And it was really quite a special time. 

[00:03:57] So, It's really exciting to have Anna on the podcast today to share her experience with mindfulness, financial independence, travel and all sorts of things. And so, again, welcome Anna to the podcast. 

[00:04:08] Anna Kozenkova: Thank you, Adam. And as you're talking now, it just brings to mind that this has been clearly one of the biggest highlights both of my time at Google and of my life in general, both the train, the trainer program.

[00:04:20] A search inside yourself and then all the experience of traveling the world, facilitating this program and actually culminating just before the COVID pandemic hit that we could facilitate together. It was a, almost like a dream come true. All this envisioning that you're talking about a lot.

[00:04:37] I think that was a great example of that. 

[00:04:39] Adam Coelho: Yeah, it's so cool because, for context everyone, this was December 17th, 2019, I think, and this was right before things really started to show up in China. And yeah, it was really cool because normally we wouldn't get to facilitate together.

[00:04:56] You would be facilitating in Europe and I'd be facilitating in north America. But this was a really special chance for us to do this and for a team that wouldn't normally get to do it because it was, a small team of about 25 people in Lisbon. So really. Beautiful how things came together and we were able to do that.

[00:05:12] So Anna, I'd love to begin by having you share a little bit about yourself, your journey and what you're up to now.

[00:05:18] Anna Kozenkova: So I originally come from a small town just outside of Moscow called duke. And this is a center for international nuclear research where my parents worked through all their life. And why I mentioned this first, because I think. Actually joining Google eventually was part of my journey of satisfying this hunger and curiosity for human talent, for human potential, for this incredible environment of having international people from all over the world, coming together with best ideas, best intent, and creating something together and thinking back I'm I think I'm very lucky and happy person because I work with people all my life, and this is what I like doing.

[00:06:03] So I started over 20 years ago, working in consultancy focusing on human resources. Then I moved on to executive search area. And then ultimately I joined Google and I'm here for six and a half years now with people operations, where again, I have a chance to both. Do my core job with Googlers and also bring all my passions to Google such as search inside yourself, such as coaching team development activities.

[00:06:30] And there is other things. So it's it's a great journey. Thank you for asking.

[00:06:34] Adam Coelho: So I know that mindfulness is a big part of that journey. Can you share a little bit about how you came upon mindfulness and then tell us a little bit about the impact that it's had on your life? 

[00:06:44] Anna Kozenkova: When we facilitate search inside yourself, you need to reflect a lot about your life because you bring this material forward to a lot of people and you need to really relate to it. And two things came to mind. So one thing goes back to my early childhood. And I remember once I was probably three or four years old skiing with my dad through a forest where I was small and very tired and very upset and almost frustrated with everything around me.

[00:07:12] And as I stopped looking angry that my father, he actually told me, Hey, look, what a beautiful scene we have in front of us. And it was some nice piece of forest with beautiful lights and so on. And that was my initial realization that this light can be different. You can look at things differently.

[00:07:29] A positive and a negative angle at the same moment of time. And this is really beautiful. 

[00:07:35] And then the second story goes to my biggest passion, which is travel. And one specific trip made a huge impact and it was a trip to Bhutan. I believe I went there around 2009 and I spent about two weeks and the whole experience was very meditative.

[00:07:51] It was not I didn't expect it. I didn't know what to expect, but we were a lot in the nature. We were a lot in different areas where we could sit quietly and reflect and just take it all in. And I remember coming back and at that time I had some challenging situation at work which developed into very challenging situation at work, not at Google at this point.

[00:08:11] And I was observing myself a little bit from a third-party perspective and seeing. Actually I was all right with that. I could take it all fine. I had a lot of space around me to navigate and I was thinking like, what's going on? It's not my usual self. I'm not anxious. I'm not reactive. I'm not panicking.

[00:08:31] And then I thought something happened that filled me up with this space. And then it dissipated, of course. So time and life takes over. So within three, four months it was all gone, but I remembered the feeling and that brought me so much curiosity that I started exploring and started doing different practice and retreats and yoga and meditation.

[00:08:52] And now it's a huge part of my life. And I think it's really a great gift that I discovered. And I really would wish that both people would discover for themselves as well. 

[00:09:03] Adam Coelho: Very good. And on that trip to Butan. How did you decide to go to Butan? Like why Butan? Like personally, I never heard of Butan until I was at wisdom, 2.0 and a guy who's from Butan who has like tours to bring people to Butan actually introduced me to the country.

[00:09:21] Like how did you decide to go there? 

[00:09:24] Anna Kozenkova: Yeah. I have to laugh because in a way with my lifestyle, I love traveling. It's one of my biggest passions I've been to around 90 countries in the world. So it's probably not a surprise for myself, but I also went to Bhutan at the same time, how I discovered the specifically, it was through a book which was called something like geography of bliss.

[00:09:48] And this book was focused on the happiest countries in the world. And why even, despite being maybe very cold and dark, like Iceland or being, not that developed and somehow not even known like Bhutan, this country is actually are some of the happiest places where people say they're well, they're flourishing.

[00:10:08] They're satisfied with their life. So that's how Bhutan first came on my radar. And that was just very curious to see what about it that makes it so special. And then it had such impact on my life that I believe that indeed it has some special qualities as a country. So I would highly recommend visiting if you have. 

[00:10:26] Adam Coelho: Yeah. And I know that they have this gross national happiness, right. they have an index that they measure the happiness of their people. Just like we measure the economic output with GDP. That's it's a pretty interesting thing when that guy was telling me about it I was like blown away by that.

[00:10:43] So Butan introduced you to this meditative feeling. How did your practice. In your day-to-day life? 

[00:10:50] Anna Kozenkova: Yeah. So the stock was rough and bumpy.

[00:10:53] I remember trying and trying, and it just didn't work. I was trying to do an hour of sitting in some yoga studio or trying to do something at home. And ultimately I decided to immerse myself and do it in a kind of a really concentrated manner. So I went for a 10 day silent retreat and really experienced the flow of different emotions, different sensations, both in the body as you are sitting a lot.

[00:11:19] And it's actually very painful ultimately, but also in my mind. And and that actually worked for me. So I felt a lot better. Peace and space. I can compare it to if you ever go to high altitudes and then you spend a lot of time, let's say you are in Tibet or somewhere there.

[00:11:36] And and your lungs become adjusted to less air. And then you get down at normal altitude, you can run and you can do physical work at some kind of human angle. So I felt the same after this retreat. I felt like I became superhuman for a while because I had so much space in my head and so much opportunity to navigate a much better and more skillfully.

[00:11:58] And afterwards, of course I kept the regular practice and I'm still doing regular retreats, so I actually go to either silent meditation retreats annually, or I go to a mix of yoga and meditation retreats in Sri Lanka. That is specifically, I went six times already there in my life. So it's also a regular practice for about two to two and a half weeks at a time.

[00:12:21] So that's a big part of my sort of keeping in the flow of the mindfulness. 

[00:12:28] Adam Coelho: Yeah. I remember you telling me about that Sri Lankan retreat when you were just getting ready to go there when we were in Portugal together. And that was probably the last time you did that. I mentioned 

[00:12:38] Anna Kozenkova: Absolutely

[00:12:39] Adam Coelho: This idea of space is really important to me. And there's this quote that's attributed to Viktor Frankl who wrote Man's Search For Meaning. I know you know this, but I'm explaining it to the audience. 

[00:12:49] It's "in between stimulus and response, there is a space and in that space lies our power to choose our response.

[00:12:57] And in our response lies our growth in our freedom."

[00:13:00] And I'm curious, what does this quote, and more importantly, what does this idea of space mean to you and how do you bring that forth and create that space in your life?

[00:13:11] Anna Kozenkova: So ultimately both in my life and also because I think we are on the same page here. We both work a lot with different teams at Google and individuals, and we are able to also discuss these topics and bring these topics further. So it's not only about us. It's a matter of creating the opportunity for true deeper reflection and for creating this personal space for balancing your needs and your values and your priorities, the true ones with all the avelanche of things, opportunities, challenges that life brings our way every day. 

[00:13:47] So I think this is the core thing for me in this equation that I'm looking at. And since you've mentioned the quote ofViktor Frankl, and it's also refers to freedom and, freedom is quite a catchy word. So many people would say, freedom is my value, or it's very important for me.

[00:14:04] And I also think so but at the same time, it's so difficult to define. And recently I came by a definition by a Paulo Coelho, actually who defined it as freedom is not the absence of commitments, but the ability to choose and commit myself to what is best for me. And for me, that resonated a lot because sometimes we say, oh, I want to be free.

[00:14:25] I don't want to work anymore. Or I want to be free and I want to do whatever I like, but then people don't even know what it would be. But it's this point when you actually are choosing and you are reflecting on what is best for you and how can you. Fulfill your life. And also through this fulfillment, hopefully bring things forward for society or for other people around you.

[00:14:44] Adam Coelho: And so would you say that creating this space allows you the power to create that freedom, which goes right along with choice and choosing what you want to commit yourself to? 

[00:14:56] Anna Kozenkova: Yes, for me I'm working on it of course, day in, day out. It's a work in progress. You can never say that, Hey I'm done choosing everything is perfect because then you probably are not leaving anymore.

[00:15:07] So for me, this is of course an ongoing process, but this is what I am striving to do. And one example I can give here is again, back to my passion of travel so travel requires money and time, right? And it requires sometimes very harsh prioritizing and really understanding what you are willing to give up or what you're willing to do to accomplish what you really want.

[00:15:32] And and creating this space allows you then to say, Hey, I'm for example, not going for this specific project or I'm not going to spend money on these specific things because my priority is elsewhere. But then it's fulfills you so much that you feel you are living this truly rich and happy life because you are completely aligned with what you want to do and what is really, you. 

[00:15:54] Adam Coelho: Got it. Yeah. That's a good example. 

[00:15:57] It sounds like creating this space through the practice of mindfulness has had a huge impact on many areas of your life. Can you talk a little bit about how practicing mindfulness allows you to cultivate this space and then, what that enables you to do within your day to day life.

[00:16:16] Anna Kozenkova: So if we talk about day-to-day I think what mindfulness really does is allowing me to connect with my true needs and my true natural value is and then structure my activities and priorities alongside them that the whole process of life becomes seamless and becomes like a flow.

[00:16:37] You've talked about the flow of one of your programs, and I really loved that, that podcast. And again if you want more concrete examples, I have defined for myself a few things that are. Top priorities, no matter what one of them, for example would be. I speak on video with my family every day.

[00:16:54] So I may not have time for a workout or for maybe doing a little bit more work at work or something else, but I would always find time for this and why, because I established it as one of my core priorities. And this is something I always find time for be 10 minutes or 30 minutes, but it feels me with this extra energy, strength and joy.

[00:17:17] But to realize that this is important, you need a lot of space to actually differentiate between what is urgent and what is really important. So urgent versus important. And I think for me, this is the distinction about it.

[00:17:31] If we go to financial side I read somewhere, I think it was on Quora. There was a question. How can you. Feel that you are rich in your life. And the answer was you need to be brutally honest with yourself. What is really important for you personally in life and then structure your expenses or your spending with like core focus on that area.

[00:17:51] And because I already lived like this most of my life, probably thanks to mindfulness. I actually liked this advice because I really truly feel that I always have enough money. I feel like very abundance, even though at some points of my life, I did not technically had that much money, but it always felt abundant. I've never felt like I'm missing something.

[00:18:11] And I think it's because you really know, okay. Like these are the areas that you really want to prioritize. And then if you are structuring your expenses or your life towards them, that it's a becoming a very. Fulfilling story.

[00:18:26] To answer your question in a radical manner, I think it allows me to design both everyday of my life, but then it turns into every week or month or year exactly as I want them to be. So I really designed them on my terms, but to design that you need to have, a lot of clarity of what it is, and then you need to have this opportunity to create it because then you have to be very clear about what it is.

[00:18:56] And from that perspective, if I know that, for example, I need to dedicate time to my personal practice. Every day. I do that. If I close my laptop at 6:00 PM, I finish my work. I actually do not think back what wasn't done or what I I missed because I, then I move on to my next fulfilling and exciting activity, being a conversation with my family or walk in the nature or some project that I'm doing outside of court job, or a great book and reading about my next destination country, et cetera.

[00:19:30] So this allows me to have this life filled with activities that really are meaningful for me. And then I can also maximize on that. Into bringing more meaning and more more value to the world around me through that. Does that make sense? 

[00:19:45] Adam Coelho: Yeah, it makes sense. And I think, what you were saying before about the space giving you the ability to really prioritize, to get super clear on what is important to you, what is aligned with your values and what is not aligned with your values then allows you to design your life where you're spending your time and attention on the things that are a priority and, setting aside the things that aren't.

[00:20:11] Anna Kozenkova: Yeah. I don't know if I can ask a counter question. I know that you were planning a vacation now. For me, if I hear vacation, I'm just get old buzzy. So like, how did you prioritize your vacation time, but was there mindfulness involved. 

[00:20:25] Adam Coelho: That's a good question. And so I would say, yeah, there, there was definitely mindfulness involved because mindfulness is really what allowed me to tune into my experience of being burnt out.

[00:20:36] I was bringing a kind awareness of mindfulness to, okay. My head feels like it's swirling with a ton of things filling it up, things that I have to do, things that I should do all these things and work being a huge part of that. used mindfulness and I figured out, okay.

[00:20:53] Yes, I'm actually burnt out and I need a break. And so, that allowed me to make the choice that I needed to do it. And to have that conversation where I said, Hey, I need three weeks off. Actually. I said four weeks and I got some pushback, which was interesting because then I had mindfulness of being very annoyed by that.

[00:21:14] Which is, maybe a little ridiculous, but I did all right, but three weeks. And then when it comes to actually spending the time, I would say I, I had hopes to bring mindfulness to design that time, but ultimately it was just most important for me to. Just not be thinking about work.

[00:21:34] And I find that if I take a day off or two days off it's nice, but the work is still in the back of my mind. And taking three weeks really gave me the ability to just completely set that aside and not even think about it or check my laptop or it really allowed me to disconnect. And so that was the main priority for me.

[00:21:55] So I guess I was mindful about that. And then on a day-to-day basis, it was just more of the same of chasing my two and a half year old around dealing with things around the house. But also my parents came as well. And so that was the first time I had seen them for, a year and a half.

[00:22:11] And so it was really wonderful to be able to spend time with them. And I wouldn't describe it as every day started with mindfulness. I've been out of that since my son was born because basically he's my alarm clock. And so the idea of getting up an hour before half hour before I haven't gotten there yet, I'd like to, because I think back on the time when I was doing that and I had a regular morning routine and it was a really wonderful way to start the day.

[00:22:37] But unfortunately at this point in my life, it's not going that way right now. And yeah, there was some degree of mindfulness and ultimately it was really wonderful to have that separation from work. And that ability to just have three weeks where it's I don't have to think about any of the normal things that I are filling up my plate every single day.

[00:23:00] Anna Kozenkova: It's a beautiful story, Adam, because it just speaks to the whole. I think big show that we're trying to carve out here together about making the space, creating the opportunity for choice honoring your values and your needs. So all of these, like what you're describing is exactly there. And what I think we, we probably can agree on is that leading with mindfulness and all life potentially can allow this process to continue.

[00:23:28] So we can carry on choosing smartly and really making the right choices for ourselves, but then also for the environment around us, because we are actually the triggers and the carriers of this environment, right? So if we have the right mindset, the rights wellness that, that has direct impact on people, we interact with, be it a family, be it, your peers with your clients, that's, coaching or facilitation, et cetera.

[00:23:55] So all of that is. Of primary importance. So I'm super happy to hear that it worked out with the time. Yeah. 

[00:24:02] Adam Coelho: Yeah. And I appreciate you asking me because a friend of mine who also works at Google he said, Hey, you mentioned the podcast that you were going to take this three weeks.

[00:24:10] What happened? I'm so glad that you asked because I didn't really know how to bring that up. 

[00:24:16] Okay.

[00:24:16] So let's shift gears now and talk a little bit about living in harmony with your values. You've mentioned values a few times. You mentioned that travel is something that you value quite a lot. 

[00:24:29] I'd love to hear about what your top values are and how you think about living in harmony with those values.

[00:24:37] Anna Kozenkova: Actually, it's it's a great question. And through all the programs that we do like search inside yourself. I also facilitate life design and some other programs. One of the ways you can go around discovering something really truly important for yourself is going back to some of your childhood memories or priorities or passions.

[00:24:57] And so the re relieving them and seeing do they resonate still. And how can you bring more of that into your life? And maybe I will share a short story now. When I remember being like six, seven years old me and my brother he's younger, we always chatted before falling asleep. So before going to bed, we were laying around chatting about different things.

[00:25:18] And usually what we chatted about was very funny because I was telling him, Hey, when we grow up, we will go traveling. And my brother would say, yeah, it's okay, but let's go traveling in the car. And I would. Find the worries. But we will visit a lot of different countries. We will be driving around and my brother would say sure, but the car has to be big and strong and this and that.

[00:25:37] And I would be saying, okay, it's going to be big and strong. We will, we can sleep in the car. We will save more money. We'll travel more. And on it went. And then when I was something like 25 years old, I remember driving home from a trip. I think it was some adventure trip to Yemen or something like that.

[00:25:54] And my brother was teaching having a meal and that had arrived and I said, Hey, do you realize that you promised to travel with me when we grow up and you never actually did. And he looked back and he said, no, I didn't promise to travel. You promised to buy me a big and strong car and you never did that.

[00:26:10] So there was a really nice connection of how these different values show up and what what they then later. to your life and the importance of potentially living them. Right. And and having them part of your life and about other values, of course. Actually some of that still goes back to the childhood.

[00:26:28] I think this human connection, and one of the things I'm truly fascinated about is the work of nonviolent communication and the work of really building trust and understanding between all human beings and in antagonistic environment, even more so though, I fully recognize how challenging it is and this capacity to bring compassion, to bring understanding, to bring curiosity about each other as human beings.

[00:26:55] I think it's one of my true core values and I. Honored to leave some of that through work that I do at Google and now also through additional work as a coach. So it's really fulfilling. It gives me so much joy internally that it's actually amazing.

[00:27:09] It's good to have that and to share that further. 

[00:27:12] Adam Coelho: Yeah, absolutely. And I find that the more I bring awareness to how I am living my values. First, you have to have awareness of what your values are, right? So for me, my big values are building connection between myself and others and by bringing others together and also creating opportunity through that connection that I'm creating.

[00:27:32] And I find that the more I pay attention to if, and how I'm living, that the more I do it, the more I'm encouraged to keep doing that. Are there any practical ways that you check in, am I living my values? How could I be living my values more? 

[00:27:51] Anna Kozenkova: Yeah. So clearly there, there are I use conversations with a coach where I am checking in through reflection and through some skillful questions I'm receiving also on the other end about how things are going and where some gaps might be and what they want to do further. Another tool, I think it was mentioned here a few times also is clearly join the link where I think I'm doing it in a stint, like maybe four months in a role and really discovering certain topics in a flow day by day helps to arrive to some conclusions and really act on them because once you put them on paper and you catch them, then in your subconscious mind your brain starts working.

[00:28:34] As you talk about envisioning as well, and then when the right moment comes, it actually pushes you in the right direct. You almost don't have to do much. You just need to realize that and allow the brain to do the work by itself. So I think these kinds of tools I find super useful and at the same time, not difficult and not even that much time consuming.

[00:28:52] And the fact that they give is so amazing. 

[00:28:55] Talking about that I'm super thrilled about your potential course that is coming up. And once you offer it, I will be definitely signing up. I don't know if it's already coming on our internal systems, but. Let's keep us posted.

[00:29:08] Adam Coelho: Yeah. Soon. What Anna's referring to is a workshop on envisioning which is really, what you're talking about, getting clear around what you want and what's important to you, and then practicing those thoughts and those beliefs so that when the opportunities to live, those beliefs show up, you're ready.

[00:29:28] And it's easeful, right? It's like the door is open and you just walk through the door. And so I appreciate you sharing those practices of journaling and reflection and mindful conversation in inquiry with a coach or a trusted friend or family member. Those are all really good ways of doing it.

[00:29:46] So let's talk a little bit more about this idea of freedom and what role money plays in the process of creating freedom? How do you think about that? 

[00:29:57] Anna Kozenkova: Yeah it's a big question. So many people are I talking about money when they talk about happiness and freedom and wellbeing and so on and so forth.

[00:30:06] So my relationship with money has been it has gone through several phases because I obviously was growing up in the communism. At that time money actually had very little value. You could not earn more than you were paid, but at the same time you had full security of housing, education, medical system, et cetera.

[00:30:26] And you felt very well and very unaware. And the moment when that system ended I think there was a comparison in the media that it was. Kindergarten kids were thrown into the turbulent ocean to swim because people had no idea about what the loan is or what a mortgage is or how you can actually navigate through financial instruments.

[00:30:47] And it was a very interesting and very scaring the way time. And at that time, I actually naturally, and I don't want to say that it was some design, but I naturally was very good in prioritizing what I want to spend money on and what I don't need. And that point, I didn't know that I was doing it.

[00:31:05] But then I had at pen pal in in the U S actually it was a guy in California who was a real estate broker, and we somehow became pen pals and we were writing each other about life and I was maybe 20 to 22, 24. And then. About the same age, probably slightly older in California. And I was just sharing about all the travels I was doing and all the different activities I was doing.

[00:31:28] And at some point this person, his name was Chris said, Anna, how can you really do that? Shut up, you live in Russia. It's not that economically developed. What's going on? How can you afford going to, Ethiopia and Galapagos and Vietnam and so on and so forth. And then I was thinking hard about this question because for me, my life seemed normal.

[00:31:48] And then I got this question from a friend and I thought what's going on here? And I ultimately went back to Chris and I said, Hey, how much money do you spend per month on your life? And then it was calculating on my side. And I had my own tiny apartment, so I, my utility bill was maybe a hundred dollars.

[00:32:08] I spent some money on food. I spent some money on transportation expenses, but in total it was like less than a thousand goals per month. Easy. So I had a very good life, but it was below a thousand dollars. And then when this pen pal of mine, he started calculating his expenses in some way around San Diego.

[00:32:26] He actually said it's something like 6,000 per month or something like that as a minimum, then I have to get on top of that to do something else. And that was probably the answer. It's not that we were earning in the same league, but it was the way of structuring your life. And that gave me a very good lesson that I still keep that being very mindful about how you spend money, what you spend money on and also at your expense base.

[00:32:51] I know that, of course we all live in certain locations where maybe we don't want to change them, et cetera. But sometimes you may actually make a decision that it doesn't make sense to spend X amount on rent or X amount. And just keeping up a certain lifestyle somewhere where you spend all your money on your lifestyle and nothing on savings or nothing on your real values and fun.

[00:33:13] And then the decision may come that you can restructure that. So my experience has been great in this now living in Prague, it's also an amazing cost leaving a place. And that allows me again, to go to places like Antarctica or to also save money for for the future or invest.

[00:33:29] So this is a, this is how I see the money elements. 

[00:33:33] Adam Coelho: Yeah, that's a really cool lesson to realize. As you said earlier, you're living extremely well, but not spending all that much money. And it's because you're very clear on the things that you value and the things that you don't value.

[00:33:48] And I think a lot about this idea of space in relation to finances as well. Just like, between the stimulus and the response, there's a space between our income and our expenses. Hopefully there's a space, and if there isn't a space or there's negative space, you're spending more than you're bringing in.

[00:34:10] You have no space, which means you have very little choice. If any choice at all. And that could be, what's considered living paycheck to paycheck, being in debt, things like that. Those things really detract from your choice. And do you have any thoughts about this idea of space being applied to money?

[00:34:29] Anna Kozenkova: I agree fully with what you're saying. I think that exactly fits into this philosophy that I have, that we need to be very clear about how and where, how and where we want to leave. And then what we spend on. And clearly manage the debt very carefully. I know in the U S there is a big culture of lending money, et cetera.

[00:34:55] I'm not saying that there isn't in Europe, but I almost never had death in my life. So I managed to go through my major times of buying real estate or education, et cetera, with very little debt and then was gone. 

[00:35:09] And then I will add to that we also need to be skillful and to actually realize that this space with the money topic potentially is not enough, because you also need to invest into some education and proper understanding of what to do. With with the soap class or with the money you want to save and to invest over the right.

[00:35:29] People can make mistakes obviously. And we are all human beings, but at the same time we can educate ourselves and to make more informed decisions, because money is our energy all the time. It's our also like life flow that we have pouring into it. So to use it skillfully and to really make it work also for us and to make the most of it in our lives.

[00:35:51] That's I think a beautiful solution. If we can arrive there, if you can arrive there, I hope so. And I wish the same for myself. But one thing, Adam, that I found interesting in your podcast previously was your questions around. How we spent money. And for me, for example, and I would love to hear your thoughts on that.

[00:36:09] There is a saying, I think it's by John Lennon. It's about time versus money, but the saying goes like the time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. And sometimes I apply this to money, but of course, on the softer scale. But let's say if I really love, I don't know, good food, or if I want to go out with some great friends to an expensive place to, to eat, or if I want to do a cruise in Antarctica and it costs a lot of money, but because I enjoy it so much it's fulfills me so much.

[00:36:40] I never consider it for a moment wasted money. It will not take away my determination to, to save, to invest, et cetera. But this part I'm just easily enjoying. And what are your thoughts on that?

[00:36:52] Adam Coelho: In theory. I agree in practice. I have found that I can be a little bit cheap or a lot of bit cheap sometimes.

[00:37:03] And just, yeah I'm working on that. Honestly. I'm very fortunate. I've saved a good amount of money and I have a good job and, money thankfully is not a big concern at the moment. But even still, I don't want to spend money on anything. No not nothing. But it's not easy for me to spend money.

[00:37:23] I'll give you an example right now, we are realizing that we need a second car, right? Things are starting to open up. And if one of us is out doing something, the other one is stuck here at the house and can't do anything. And so we're realizing that we need a second car and the idea of spending thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars on a car is freaking me out a little bit.

[00:37:49] It's something that I'm trying to work on, trying to bring more awareness around. Why do I feel that scarcity and, What's the point of having a good amount of money saved up. If you are worried about money? Like it doesn't feel abundant or spacious.

[00:38:05] And so I'm definitely trying to work on that. 

[00:38:07] Anna Kozenkova: Yeah. Actually just to share with you recently, in spring I attended a very interesting workshop. It was the six weeks long and it was on your relationship with money and it was consisting of three parts. So one was the mindfulness part where there was a meditation teacher offering every day.

[00:38:27] And you, or sometimes consequent days meditations about. Experience with yourself as a child, as a young adult, potentially on also meditation on death, et cetera. So there were different kind of topics through the mindfulness part. And then there was a psychologist who was leading different practices, like establishing your connection to money through some memories of what was said to you as you were growing up, who influenced you in which way, what is actually your story in this whole picture how to identify, your priorities and values.

[00:38:59] So it was a series of exercises, and then there was a financial consultant who was actually giving the more education on what to do with the money, if you have it, or if you want to make more. And it was a very interesting immersive six week program because. Combined a lot of space as we've been talking about then with some practical exercise of understanding, like what you're saying now, like where does it come from?

[00:39:23] Why do I feel scarce? Or why do I feel abandoned also? Interesting. So how to navigate and then actually what to do, which potentially, I know that you've invested a lot with reading books, et cetera, but some people don't and that it could be also very useful. So I think there is a big area here that a lot of people need more about.

[00:39:43] I think your podcast here, it really feeds and helps many people hopefully with that. 

[00:39:48] Adam Coelho: Yeah, that sounds really cool. What's that course called. 

[00:39:50] Anna Kozenkova: I can send you a link later. Because it was not in English. I did not invite you for example, to participate. 

[00:39:56] Adam Coelho: Yeah. Chances are, I wouldn't have understood much.

[00:40:00] Yeah it's interesting. And I think there is definitely something. Inquiry and reflection that I will do on my relationship with money. On episode three of the podcast, we had a guy named Spencer Sherman and he leads a course called the Dharma of money. And so, he owns a financial advising firm.

[00:40:20] Then he started I think, in the eighties. And so he's been doing it a long time, but he also has a search inside yourself, facilitator and deep practitioner of mindfulness in Buddhist principles. And so he has a course that looks at the two of those as well. And so I'd invite people to check out episode three. But it's a good inquiry, right?

[00:40:39] Because for some reason I just have this desire to spend as little money as I can. And I definitely intellectually understand and agree with what you were saying about. Spending money on the things that you care about and that are of value to you should be a joyful thing even right. should certainly not be considering it a waste or anything like that. Having the ability to go somewhere and have my wife and son also be able to go somewhere. It seems very valuable that creates freedom and mobility and opportunity. And so those things are of value to me. So I think it makes a lot of sense.

[00:41:19] I'll tell you one thing that has helped me ease up a little bit on the, not wanting to spend any money is buying a house. Buying a house. We'll certainly get the money flowing, cause it's quite expensive to buy a house, obviously. And then there are just a number of expenses associated with it.

[00:41:37] And so I'm kind of trying to approach this first year as a homeowner really. Great looking at okay. Spend money on the things I need to spend money on and then see how much my life costs. Because I don't really have a sense for how much my life is going to cost right now.

[00:41:50] And this whole fire, financial independence retire early which we can talk about more is, really dependent on how much your life costs. I've been focused on spending as little as I can. So that number is as small as possible and they need as little as possible to ultimately reach financial independence.

[00:42:08] But ultimately that's not the goal it's to live a fulfilled life and, to align my work and my time and what I spend my life energy on. As you mentioned earlier on things that are fulfilling, money is really a reflection of that life.

[00:42:25] Anna Kozenkova: Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[00:42:27] And I think just remembering how much you, like also working with space. I think actually the house is a great meditative tool for you potentially to work with it because it's something you probably enjoy doing, and then you also need to spend on it so you can create this balance of the opposites and and work with it and hopefully discover something you in your relationship to money through that.

[00:42:51] So I will be looking forward to hearing more in the future podcasts. 

[00:42:56] Adam Coelho: So we mentioned the fire movement, the financial independence retire early movement, and one of the big values of that community is this idea of. And having financial resources, having that space between what you earn and what you spend creates some degree of freedom.

[00:43:14] And so I'd love to get your thoughts on the fire movement generally and then how you think about creating this freedom, both in the present and long-term in your life. 

[00:43:25] Anna Kozenkova: So what I think about FIRE in general, I actually love the idea in the sense that I believe having financial comfort and or security can give much more choice to many people.

[00:43:40] And I often hear from my friends when they say that because they have a lot of debt or because they have some obligations they're not making the choices they would like to be making. And that is sad for me to hear. So of course there could be also other ways navigating. So it's not only I believe about the money.

[00:44:01] However, there is an element which is important here. So from that perspective I believe if I personally do things well and correctly in the sense that I invest into understanding how finances work and what I need to be in that freedom zone. And that's the important piece, right?

[00:44:20] Because how, and when do you know it's enough and how, and when, you know, You can actually let go. And I don't know if it's challenged for many people, but referring also to your previous comments that you did save up some money and you do have a good job. So things are working well, but at the same time, you're still trying to save up more and really being very cautious about things.

[00:44:43] I have potentially a different approach to spending, but at the same time, I'm thinking would there be a moment in my life when I would say, all right, I can quit my job if I want to and not be kidding about it, because say it is one thing, but actually doing it is quite another. So this is one thing that I'm spending a lot of time reflecting on.

[00:45:03] And I think that course, that I mentioned earlier with the six weeks of financial and mindfulness growth helped me a lot in terms of establishing this point a where I am today, this point B, where I want to go and then seeing how and when, and in which way I actually see myself reaching that point B because it doesn't have to be linear.

[00:45:23] I can have so much fun and fulfillment on the way. And that comes the second part that I also believe needs to be set. So FIRE as an idea is a great idea. At the same time we live here and now. Time for me personally is more important than money. I have to be very clear here. So probably the way you approach money, I sometimes feel I approach time.

[00:45:44] So I, I'm very careful about what I spend my time on and does it really bring fulfillment to myself and also to the impact that I want to make. So from that perspective, if I have to prioritize and maybe spend some more money on things I can do now that are really fulfilling, I would do it because the time will be gone forever and the money you can still earn.

[00:46:07] So this is one of the areas where I have clearly reflected and selected that the time would be my priority. And then through that, I think if we. Actually realize that we need to have also some occupation and some activity to feel fulfilled. And I think many of your guests and podcasts also play in the same that they love their jobs.

[00:46:28] They enjoy their businesses, they enjoy the challenges they have. And I think this is the important piece here. So if we find what the T is, and if we do what we like doing, that would feel really seamless, right? And we, we still can keep going and we can skip working. I have my parents working in science.

[00:46:47] They are retired officially, but they keep working because they like it. It's not because they have to, it's not because they they're forced to it's because they really want to to be in this community to make some impact, et cetera, et cetera. So sometimes, thinking back, I think if I can keep the activities and the way I live my life aligned with what I really find valuable and interesting.

[00:47:09] I don't have to worry about fires so much. I just need to be mindful that I still work towards securing more comfortable future, because I think it's just wise to do right. So it's wise to have a cushion it's wise to have savings. It's wise to have opportunity to choose otherwise if suddenly things change and I don't want to keep working the way I do today.

[00:47:31] Adam Coelho: Wow. You just summarized everything beautifully there. For me, fire is, it's a great idea. And it's really not about getting to this point where. You have to stop working, right? It is about the choice, and creating that space in your financial life gives you just like in the quote from Victor Frankel gives you the power to choose what's important to you. Choose how you spend your time, your attention your resources. And that choice is really what we're working towards. It's not about not working, it's about having the option to work on what you want, or not work if you don't want right.

[00:48:14] Really to have that power to choose and to do it from a place of knowing you're going to be all right. And the other piece, you mentioned this idea of enough is really the key word with all of this. What is enough which gets to, what's important to you? What do you need?

[00:48:32] What are your needs and what are your wants? And how much money is enough to satisfy those things. So money becomes less of a factor, and you can then focus your life, energy on the things that really are most important to you.

[00:48:46] And I'll be honest, that question of enough is an elusive question, right? It could be that I, I grew up in the United States where there is no such thing as enough, and it's more, better, faster. Constantly more is better mentality. Enough and scarcity and my cheapness, it's all tied up together and it's something that I'm constantly trying to reflect on.

[00:49:11] Anna Kozenkova: Actually do maybe add to this thought Adam. In my very recent coaching cohort one person also from the U S shared that there is a constant dilemma of, am I not enough? Or am I too much? And maybe applying it to money is it's a bit of a stretch, but in terms of our lives, in the sense of, am I not doing enough?

[00:49:34] And I have to keep striving and I have to keep pushing myself, or am I already doing too much that I am getting to burn out? Or I'm getting to a really unhealthy zone, for example. And where is this? Middle and how do I navigate? And I think this is the beauty of mindfulness that we both share a passion for, because it helps us to be more clear to to have wiser choices.

[00:49:57] And the same goes for the financial side, where again, we're triggered so much by so many things by comparison, by opportunities by many things. And we need to be wise about how we want our lives to look like . 

[00:50:10] Adam Coelho: Yeah. That's a really good point because enough is not only about money.

[00:50:16] It is about everything. Do I have enough time? Did I do enough today? Is my work fulfilling enough? Am I personally, am I good enough? And I totally agree. There's this constant feeling of, I need to do more. Before we hit record. I was saying I feel like I'm getting to the point again where I have so many things going on that it's too much.

[00:50:41] beyond enough and peeling things away might be just, what's needed to get back to, they're just right. Amount of enough, if that makes any sense. 

[00:50:53] Anna Kozenkova: Oh it's beautiful. And we can carry on talking about this, but it's just a great way of anchoring ourselves that this is an important question.

[00:51:01] And checking in with yourself is so important because otherwise you will get very easily into this too much area and it can be too much of anything too much of consumption food or anything, or it can be too much. Work or commitments. And it clearly is not bringing us to any good place in life.

[00:51:21] Adam Coelho: Yeah. So I want to switch gears. You mentioned a few times travel as one of your big passions. I obviously know that having been friends with you for about five years. You are without a doubt, the most well-traveled person I know. And I would love to hear how you think about travel, why it's so important to you and how you plan your life around it.

[00:51:45] Anna Kozenkova: Actually interestingly that when the mindfulness part comes in and in a simplified way, you can say it's paying attention to what is here and now, right? So paying attention and being in the moment. When you travel would challenge you to notice next time, when you do that, how much of that is present as well there?

[00:52:04] So you are going to a new place. You're experiencing new things. You're meeting new people and your attention to here and now really spikes and you become completely involved in what is happening. You becoming fully present to what is happening, especially when you're traveling, for example, either alone or maybe not in a huge group of people that take all your attention away from what happening but otherwise it's really there.

[00:52:28] I currently spend most of my time traveling to very natural places which are also helping me connect to myself and to actually to increase my well-being in many ways. So if I spend time, as you were just saying about your vacation, where you just had to really disconnect from constant thoughts of work from constant, maybe electronics and devices, constant messages and information coming your way on all these different topics.

[00:52:57] I tend to be very good choosing areas where there is no wifi and often not even phone connection. So once you get out of the airport or some kind of port on a boat or something like that, you really are surrounded by pure nature by animals or by just some beautiful scenery. And that adds a lot also space to my life because I have this opportunity to reflect, to enjoy, to be fully absorbed by what is there and how I plan my life around it. So in Europe we are fortunate to have many vacation days and also some national holidays. So I do manage around three biggish trips per year trips of two to three week long.

[00:53:37] And I've been doing it for many years. So for over 20 years, so you can do the math. It's been quite a bit of travel. And then I also try to Just use the opportunity and see what really sticks to me if I want to go and spend some time in the mountain or going and spend some time on the seaside, especially recently with the work from home situation that we were experiencing and piloting that was also a very interesting opportunity to to discover this angle of travel.

[00:54:05] This slow travel, where you are staying for a longer time in one place. And you are becoming a resident for a while and you can really benefit from learning about the culture and meeting the people and so on and so forth.

[00:54:17] Do you have a favorite travel tip, Adam? I'm asking this to everyone. So I have to ask you 

[00:54:23] Adam Coelho: the favorite travel tip.

[00:54:25] One, thing that comes to mind is, I'm bringing it back to saving money. There it is again, I think leveraging work, travel, and tying personal travel to work travel has been a huge joy for me. I have been fortunate enough and I know not everyone has this situation where they do travel for work, or certainly not as extensively as you and I have been able to do, but, I've had the opportunity to travel around Asia for work and was in Portugal for three weeks.

[00:54:52] For work as well. But even in the United States, I was actually reflecting on this with my wife last night, anytime I needed to come back east to New Jersey or even sometimes in Florida, I was able to organize it, such that I would, align that travel with a work trip that I needed to do.

[00:55:11] And, so if I had a client visit, I would tack on some time to spend time with family. And I can't even imagine how much money I've saved by doing that. Because the flight, especially tends to be the most expensive part of the trip, depending on how long you're going for, obviously. But that has been huge for me in saving tons of money, while still getting to travel a lot.

[00:55:34] And I'm definitely not one of those people that, flies across the country for one meeting for a day and then comes back. Like If I'm going, I'm going, meeting people, I'm having a dinner with friends I'm staying the weekend, and yeah, I'm going to have to spend some money doing that, but also really value travel and those experiences.

[00:55:54] So why not, 

[00:55:55] Anna Kozenkova: Here you go you honor all your values through your description, saving money, but at the same connecting with people, discovering new things and taking it at your time and at your pace beautiful. It's beautiful. Adam 

[00:56:08] Adam Coelho: So let's shift gears now into what I call the mindful fire final four. 

[00:56:12] So the first question is as we prepared for this interview, you mentioned that mindfulness helped you 10 X, your experience of your life. Can you tell us about that? 

[00:56:22] Anna Kozenkova: Yes. So I think the way it happened was that when I started doing a regular mindfulness practice, I became much more open to different opportunities and also to taking risks in various situations. 

[00:56:40] So that spaciousness that we talked about earlier allowed me to. See things in a calmer and clearer way and not to get in my own way, not to sabotage myself from the things I want and they can do.

[00:56:55] And that indeed has 10 X things for me. So starting with work where I suddenly realized that I can earn much more money than I was before. And actually I don't need to even shift anything. I wasn't consulting at that time. And I was in many ways, sabotaging myself and suddenly I just opened up and said, Hey, let it come.

[00:57:16] I can do it. And that was from the spaciousness. I was just really much more intentional about how I was investing my time, what risks I was going for. And so on, same with travel, you can always hold back and say, it's not the right time. I don't have enough money. Maybe I don't want to go alone.

[00:57:34] And again, providing the spaciousness like, Hey, why don't I just agree? Maximize here and do what I really want to do same with health on many levels and so on. I know that these are in a way, small examples, but as you take them in a total I would say a started mindfulness practice regularly, somewhere around, just past when I joined 30th.

[00:57:57] And if I consider my life in the way of the flow and the way of the journal of joy and happiness in the way of also the outcomes and results before that. And after that 10 X is Google thing, we like saying that, but I can definitely say it was that for me. And maybe even more than that.

[00:58:13] So that's, that was a beautiful experience. 

[00:58:16] Adam Coelho: Yeah. So it sounds like the ability to be mindful, to really. Accept things as they are to see clearly what's happening with a sense of curiosity and openness and kindness towards yourself, allowed you a little bit more ease with trying new things, taking risks, because instead of making up a story about how bad things might be, you instead looked at the reality of the situation with kindness and curiosity, and then that freed you up to, to move forward in some new directions with more ease.

[00:58:52] Is that kind of what you're talking about? 

[00:58:54] Anna Kozenkova: Yeah. So that is a big part of it. And then if we look deeper and broader, there were many other things happening, right? So for example, We both no, the meditation of loving kindness, so offering kindness to yourself and then to others, I had some very hard relationships with some of my colleagues at the time.

[00:59:11] And generally around me, and through that practice, I changed so much around and again, created so much more joy and abundance and opportunity for myself that has been a big piece of it. That spaciousness that we just talked about taking more risk that's another piece. And I think the also huge piece is actually being just much more present to every single moment, this high resolution awareness of all the good things that are happening also off of all the bad things that are happening, but taking them as the flow versus really making a drama or stopping because you would be afraid to go forward.

[00:59:48] So that would be probably the three pillars I can mention. 

[00:59:51] Adam Coelho: Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. 

[00:59:54] The second question is what piece of advice would you give to people early on their path to financial independence?

[01:00:00] Anna Kozenkova: So my two pieces of advice would be look at your expenses very carefully. Just coming from personal experience. And the second is investing in your education on this topic. Don't underestimate it because we're not born naturally knowing how to manage our money. And sometimes we are not taught that, and unless you invest in this yourself nobody will help.

[01:00:20] Adam Coelho: Very good advice. And I've been mentioning 

[01:00:23] Anna Kozenkova: this. 

[01:00:24] Adam Coelho: I was just going to say I've been mentioning this a lot recently. And this book that really opened my eyes to the fact that it doesn't need to be so complicated is aptly called the simple path to wealth by JL Collins.

[01:00:38] So it's meant as essentially a letter to his daughter of how he would recommend she approaches building wealth in her life without all of the stress and complexity that people often associate with managing and growing your money. So I'll put a link to that in the show notes as well, it's pretty us centric, the funds that mentions are available in the U S but also The same concept applies elsewhere as well.

[01:01:04] The third question is what piece of advice would you give to someone getting started with meditation or mindfulness? 

[01:01:10] Anna Kozenkova: So my piece of advice would be to try and be your first person scientist. So we are all different. Something works for certain people and it doesn't have to work for you.

[01:01:22] Don't despair or thinks something is wrong with you. Not at all, just observe what's happening, what works for you, and from that make the next steps. And this could be a very exciting and inspirational journey because as you notice that something is working, be journaling, be loving, kindness, big meditation, beats yoga, beet walk in the nature.

[01:01:45] Something does bring a shift in your state of mind. And create some space creates additional joy, et cetera, go for it. And then you can expand, but as a beginner, just choose your path wisely. 

[01:01:57] Adam Coelho: Very good, great advice. 

[01:01:59] And the last question is how can people connect with you online and learn more about what you're up to.

[01:02:06] Anna Kozenkova: So you can find me on LinkedIn as Anna Kozenkova I work at Google in Prague. So we'll be happy to hear from you. I also currently engage more and more in coaching primarily at Google internally, but also externally. So if you have anything to share to ask please should the message. 

[01:02:25] Adam Coelho: Very good. I will link your LinkedIn in the show notes as well. 

[01:02:30] Well Anna, thank you so much for joining me on the show today.

[01:02:33] It's been awesome to connect with you and learn more about your history and your experience. Thank you so much. 

[01:02:39] Anna Kozenkova: Thank you, Adam. I'm looking forward to continue listening to your podcasts. I absolutely love them. 

[01:02:45] Adam Coelho: Thank you. 

[01:02:45] Thanks so much for joining me on today's episode of the mindful fire podcast. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with my good friend, Anna Kozenkova.. 

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[01:03:04] As a reminder, you can find the full show notes for today's episode, including any links, resources, or books mentioned in the episode at mindfulfire.org/44.

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