30 : Mental Health, Mindfulness and Money with Joyce Marter

Adam Coelho: [00:00:04] Welcome to the mindful fire podcast where we explore living mindfully on the path to financial independence and beyond I'm your host, Adam and I'm so glad you're here.

On today's episode, I'm joined by my new friend, Joyce Marter, a psychotherapist entrepreneur, author, and speaker who has helped millions take control and lead abundant and joyful lives.

 Joyce is a licensed clinical professional counselor for over 20 years. And she's the founder of urban balance, a counseling practice. She launched in 2004 with just $500 while having $50,000 in student loans, . She grew urban balanced to over a hundred therapists, working from locations across the United States and ultimately sold urban balance to refresh mental health in 2017, where it  grosses over $5 million annually 

And Joyce is also the author of the upcoming book. The financial mindset fix a mental fitness program for an abundant life, which will be coming out in July of this year. You can, pre-order her book at financialmindsetfix.com or wherever you get your books. 

You can find the full show notes for today's episode, including all the links, books, and resources we discussed in the episode at  Mindful fire.org/thirty

I really enjoyed this conversation with my friend Joyce Marter , and I hope that you enjoyed as well. 

  Let's jump into today's episode.

Welcome to the mindful fire podcast Joyce I'm so glad you're here. 

Joyce Marter: [00:01:38] Thank you so much for having me, Adam. I'm excited. 

Adam Coelho: [00:01:41] So I'd love to start by having you share a little bit about yourself, your journey, and what you're up to now. 

Joyce Marter: [00:01:48] Absolutely. So I am a licensed psychotherapist. I've been practicing for over 20 years and I am very passionate about de-stigmatizing mental health issues.

I think we all deal with mental health issues from time to time, whether it's stress, anxiety, depression, relationship issues, grief, and loss, and that help is available and accessible and effective. I know when I came into graduate school 20 years ago, I was afraid that my professors at Northwestern were going to see that I dealt with anxiety and that they weren't going to tell me you can't be a therapist because you're anxious.

And thankfully they made us all get into our own personal psychotherapy, which. Opened my eyes helped me learn so much about myself and life and my relationships. And in addition to my clinical training, I just love the work that I do. I find it emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually rewarding. 

 I founded a counseling practice in the Chicago area called urban balance, which today is national.

It has 17 locations in six States, almost 200 therapists. And the mission of that organization is to make therapy accessible and affordable. Cause I think we all need it like going to the dentist or the doctor. And recently I've been doing a ton of corporate training and keynote speaking in the area of mental health and wellness, and very excited about my upcoming book, which is being published in July, which is called the Financial Mindset Fix

and it's a mental fitness program for an abundant life. So that's what I've been up to in a nutshell.

Adam Coelho: [00:03:35] Very cool. Yeah. It sounds like you've been busy. That's wonderful. It sounds like a big area of your work throughout the years has  been de-stigmatizing mental health. I feel like that's coming along. What do you feel are the barriers to that really reaching the mainstream and where are we on that trajectory?

Joyce Marter: [00:03:58] I'm hopeful that one of the blessings of the pandemic kind of the silver lining is that we have been living through a mental health epidemic already. And then the pandemic sort of added. Fuel to the fire. And we're all in distress. The rates of anxiety and depression and trauma based symptoms and clinical burnout are at an all time high.

And so people are starting to talk about it and it's coming out more in the mainstream. I think some of the barriers are shame and stigma. I think in the past, people, would think that somebody dealing with mental health struggles was crazy or something like that. And I don't believe that at all.

I think having mental health is just a part of the human condition. Like we have physical health and we are genetically predispositioned to respond to stress with either anxiety, depression, addiction. And we're living through a very stressful time. So these issues are coming up and it, no shame, no blame.

It's just part of our nature and our nurture. And sometimes there are cultural variables sometimes depending on how we were raised, different cultures are more. Open or less open to trusting and believing in the efficacy of mental health treatment. And so I am excited that people are having more conversations about mental health, especially in the workplace and making an effort to create a compassionate culture where people share openly about their own struggles and help each other.

And we break down that wall of perfectionism and suffering in silence. And instead say, you know what? I am stressed out. I am not doing well. I'm having some issues at home and I need to talk about it and I need support. So I think we're making progress fingers crossed. 

Adam Coelho: [00:06:01] Absolutely. Yeah.

It's one of those things that, Even for me I know the value, many resources at Google that EAP type resources which is employee assistance program. I have access to this at no cost to me and I've been meaning to do it. I've done it in the past and it's been very helpful just to talk to somebody and to get what's in my head out of my head and have someone experienced to help me work with what I'm thinking and feeling and all of that.

 And I've wanted to do it again, but I haven't prioritized it. And so  I feel like maybe people they know they should, or they feel like they want to, but they just don't take that next step.  

Joyce Marter: [00:06:44] I get that question a lot. Like when should I call for a therapy appointment? I think in sometimes  people think that they have to wait until their symptoms are so bad that it warrants making an appointment. When I really think it should be a routine and preventative form of health care, like going to the dentist or the doctor.

And I love that you brought up EAP benefits because 80% of people have employee assistance program benefits and may or may not even realize it. So if someone has insurance they're employed or their partner or family members employed have them look at their insurance card or contact their HR and ask about their EAP benefits, people TIF typically get anywhere from one to 20.

It free in-person or over tele-health counseling sessions with a licensed therapist like myself per issue per year, that they're eligible and family members are eligible as well. And if people want to continue on through their insurance due to mental health parody law, the coverage for counseling or therapy is the same as it is for major medical.

So sometimes I think people think it's very expensive, but it's often a 15, 20, $25 copay. And for people who don't have insurance, there's a lot of great community, mental health resources as well. So I would say don't wait. Anytime you're going through a life transition, like you mentioned having a two year old when you're having a baby you're.

You're going through a new relationship or moving in with a new partner you're having, you're going through divorce, or you've lost someone in your life, or you went through a move or a job change. Those are stressful. Transitions are stressful events. So those are good times to have what I call a mental health tune-up and just check in and have a wellness check and therapy and counseling can be so affordable.

I've been so effective and affordable to have a professional there, like a personal trainer for your mind and your relationships. 

Adam Coelho: [00:08:55] Absolutely. Yeah. I appreciate you highlighting that. Because the resources are there. And I'm surprised to hear that 80% of people in certain job types have those resources available and insurance covers this, but I really liked the idea of it's. It's just like your physical health, and preventative healthcare is really critical. We're not so great at it in the United States, unfortunately.

But I think that, more and more, we realize that what's going on with our mental health affects every aspect of our life and including our physical health. And so it's so important and I'm really going to take that, and make that appointment. And just, as you mentioned, all these different transitions.

Yeah. I've had a lot of these transitions and I haven't even really stopped to realize it or take stock of it. And Yeah, it's probably a good thing to do 

Joyce Marter: [00:09:49] And we don't have to have problems or symptoms to seek counseling or therapy. One of my one of my clients has referred over 60 friends and colleagues to me and to my practice.

And the reason is she's amazing. She has an amazing job. She has a loving marriage and family. She takes really good care of herself, has a great support network of friends and people tell her like, you're awesome. How do you do all of this? And she is so sweet. She says, why have a really good therapist? Which is so her.

And I think that's true. I have my own therapist that I've checked in with, even therapists need therapy. 

Adam Coelho: [00:10:30] Right. Yeah. And so let's talk about burnout, right? You mentioned that. We don't need to wait till we have an acute symptom or problem to seek  mental health help.

You mentioned the pandemic earlier. What I'm noticing is that so many people are burnt out or on the path to being burnt out. And I personally don't know how to define burnout. 

 I feel like I'm getting burnt out. I'm definitely on that path with working full-time parenting, full-time doing the podcast, doing all this, and a lot of it I love, how do I, know if I'm starting to feel burnt out and then maybe what are some of the things that I can do to prevent getting to that point where I am burnt out and I'm starting to have those symptoms and real acute issues?

Joyce Marter: [00:11:22] So we all know what stresses and stresses when we perceive something as overwhelming. And it affects our ourselves emotionally, cognitively, physically, and socially and a state of burnout is when we experience chronic and persistent stress. And so with the pandemic, we have been dealing with so much transition and change and uncertainty, and all of that is overwhelming.

And people have had so many new stressors come up with, fear and concerned about health and safety of oneself of one's loved ones. And so burnout has become a really important issue. And I think many people don't realize that burnout is a clinical diagnosis. And it has mental health implications.

So when people start feeling apathy, so not finding joy in the things that they normally find pleasurable, including work or their hobbies, or, their self care practices. If they're feeling a lot of fatigue, if they're feeling a lot of overwhelm or irritability definitely feelings of hopelessness or despair or powerlessness, and it can also lead to symptoms that look like depression or anxiety.

So with depression, sleeping more changes in sleep disruptions in sleep or appetite low mood irritability, anger, agitation, those types of things. And with anxiety, it can be just a a state of constant overwhelm or nervousness. Maybe difficulty relaxing your mind and body and feeling keyed up all of the time.

So our poor nervous systems are so jacked up from all of the stress for a very long period that we're exhausted. And so I think, yes, a lot of people are dealing with burnout. That's one of the topics that I'm most often asked to talk about for corporate trainings,

Adam Coelho: [00:13:27] I can imagine. And so what, if you notice that you're on the path, you're starting to feel some apathy or  notice some symptoms and you just maybe think I'm stressed. I'm stressed. Maybe I'm headed towards burnout. What can somebody do practically to support themselves?

Joyce Marter: [00:13:46] Absolutely. I know you and I are both big fans of mindfulness practices, like deep breathing and meditation connecting with nature, progressive muscle relaxation and yoga, which is meditation with movement. So meditation to me is like a reboot for the mind, the body and the spirit. And we get off the hamster wheel of our work and household responsibilities.

And we connect with our deeper self. We pause, we get a break from our mind chatter and we can relax our minds and our bodies connect with our breath connect with the here and now. We cause ourselves distress when we. Second guests or ruminate about the past or when we're worrying about the uncertainty of the future, when peace can really be found in the present moment.

So I love apps like calm and Headspace that have guided meditation and breathing exercises. I have a Peloton person. I like Peloton as well. And then yoga with Adrian is available on YouTube and she has a beginning and intermediate practices and is fantastic. So I definitely recommend those and the higher our stresses, the more important our self-care is.

So in my book, I have. Self care wheel, which is like a Fitbit for managing your self-care practices. And of course we know the physical self-care practices, like proper sleep, nutrition, exercise, hydration, monitoring our substance abuse, which has gone yeah. Way up during the pandemic. A lot of people are, wine and cocktails and other substances to cope with the stressors.

And then we have psychological self care. Are we practicing self-compassion? Are we practicing? Self-forgiveness self-affirmation are we we have social self care. Are we connecting with our community? Are we connecting with nature? Are we having time for solitude? So making sure that we're practicing really good, self-care including, setting limits with work and having boundaries and our.

Our relationships at home so that we can create some sense of work-life balance when really those aspects of life have become incredibly intermixed. And also we need to increase our support. So the higher our stresses are the more we need to practice self care and the more support we need to access.

And the problem is with the pandemic. We've had a decrease in support. We haven't been able to see our friends and family and loved ones. And the ways that we normally do, we might not be going to the gym or the yoga studio or our book club or whatever gave us support previously. And so we need to be mindful about assessing our support network.

I have another tool in my book of how to do that, and then transcending barriers of receiving support. Sometimes we don't ask for the help that we need, and we need to look at the people in our network and plug into them and stay connected so that we can be refilled.

Adam Coelho: [00:17:11] Got it. Got it. Yeah. That's super interesting. Something you mentioned there made me think of being willing to receive support.

I went to the wisdom 2.0 conference the other day and listened to a conversation about gratefulness and a book  by a woman named Kristi Nelson and she has a book called Wake up grateful.  She survived stage four cancer and she was. Realizing during that experience that she was always giving, giving supporting, but not allowing herself to receive support, which she mentioned was obviously hurting herself, but also was denying the people she cared about the most, the opportunity to give support. Giving support, practicing compassion for others, feels good for us and is supportive to us. And so she was not only denying herself the support, but denying the others, the opportunity to provide that support and get that benefit.

Joyce Marter: [00:18:10] I have a chapter devoted to support in my book. And you're absolutely right. Just giving and receiving support are two sides of the same coin. And a lot of times it's more comfortable for us to give support to others than it is to be vulnerable and allow others to support us. And so sometimes our ego gets in the way, sometimes our pride, sometimes we don't want to be an imposition to others.

Sometimes we've had cultural messages that tell us that accessing support is a sign of weakness. And some of those are, gender-based man, up power up, do it yourself. Or for me, I know it was, be a good girl and don't be an imposition, so we, a lot of times we do ourselves a disservice and I'm so sorry to hear about your authors cancer experience.

But it sounds like she had a real awakening on the importance of opening ourselves up to receiving. And I went through a different, and that I didn't think fully go through cancer, but I did go through burnout, professionally pretty severely. And  that kind of brought me to my knees and said,

I need to practice humility and ask for support. And that really transformed my life both personally and professionally. And you're right. When we don't allow other people to help us, we're being a good karma hog because being of service to others helps ourselves. That helps us feel better. I remember I had a client years ago who was dealing with a job loss and a breakup and some financial problems and multiple stressors, and she decided to do something she always wanted to do.

She went to volunteer in Haiti for three weeks and when she came back, she said, Joyce I have no problems. And I was like, what? And she said, being of service to others who were in such greater need shifted her perspective and she saw all her blessings and then was grateful for all she had. Practicing gratitude is shifting your mindset to looking at the positive and a lot of times, because we are maybe living in a fear mode of operation, we tend to look at the negative as a way to protect ourselves.

Adam Coelho: [00:20:39] Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. That touches on some things we've explored on the podcast before as well. The idea of, masculinity and man up and don't, even just like disconnect from your feelings completely have an episode with two EDS who wrote a book called reinventing masculinity at Adams as a psychotherapist. He  created a men's group that I'm actually a part of now here in New Jersey called men mentoring men. And it's all about, de-stigmatizing that and  they wrote this book about reinventing masculinity. And so we have a whole conversation that touches on a lot of 

Joyce Marter: [00:21:15] that.

Adam Coelho: [00:21:16] And I've been tangentially related to a lot of work around this. Another friend of mine, Ashanti Branch has a program that helps at risk young men do the same thing, have a  men's group and just come and talk about the stressors of their life.

And he's featured in a number of movies his work. , and I'm going to have another guest  at the end of the month, talking about how we raise boys and she's a researcher at Stanford. 

Joyce Marter: [00:21:42] Such important work.

I'm glad that you're doing that. I like the good men project. I blogged for them as well. That's a good site. And in the Chicago area, we have a group called victories of the heart that does men's groups and retreats, and I've referred a ton of people to them as well. So I love that you're part of that movement.

It's so important. 

Adam Coelho: [00:22:04] Just getting involved, actually, the lawyer who helped me buy this house. He's been in that group that,  Ed Adams created for 30 years. He missed the first meeting, but he was at the second meeting and he's basically gone all in on it. And I've attended a few meetings and it's just a really special environment.

The only rule is that no man shames another. And so that really. Sets the stage where you can just create a space where you can just show up, be you talk about what's real for you and be supportive and be supported as we were just talking about. 

Joyce Marter: [00:22:39] Beautiful. Love it.

Adam Coelho: [00:22:41] Yeah. So let's shift gears a little bit.  You have a book coming out The Financial Mindset Fix, Which you can, pre-order at financial mindset, fixed.com.

 And I'm curious as you're a psychotherapist for many years when you burned out, you were being a psychotherapist.

I'm imagining, but I'll speak for myself that, at Google. I lead a lot of mindfulness related activities, emotional intelligence. I'm a trainer for search inside yourself. The emotional intelligence leadership program. And I created a course that I now deliver with my boss, which is pretty special called building resilience or mindfulness people look at me as like this Zen guy always calm, but obviously that is not the reality of my life and that perception that I even have of myself to some degree where it's I'm teaching these things, like, how can I, Be burnt out, or how can I, need support, is that something that you experienced and is that something that you find that a lot of people think Oh, I, I have it really good.

I shouldn't need help or I shouldn't need support. 

Joyce Marter: [00:23:58] Oh my goodness. Again, I think we all need support. And I think when we are in a helping position, we might have the impression that we need to have it all figured out, but we have to remember we're human too, and I'll let you in on a secret.

Every therapist specializes in their own issues. So it, because that's what attracts us to that topic. And so we're, we all have issues as part of the human condition and we're all learning and growing and doing the best as possible. So I commend you and sharing what you're learning and your process through your trainings and groups.

That's such important work and fantastic. And yes, we can deal with imposter syndrome when sometimes we don't practice what we preach or we can relate to some of the symptoms of people who are suffering in different areas. And so it's extra important when we're leaders and healers and helpers, to be honest with ourselves and to I'm a huge believer in getting support through mentors, doing our own personal therapy or coaching being really mindful about your work energy.

And thinking about, what gives you energy versus what depletes you? So when I went through that personally, I recognized I really needed to decrease my clinical caseload and practice more self care, get more support, and then shift my focus a bit to doing the work that really energizes me like speaking and writing.

And so making conscious decisions to recalibrate your life so that you're functioning better. And it was at that time when I was experiencing burnout that I found mindfulness, I finally went to the local yoga studio that I've been driving past for years and signed up for mindfulness meditation class and then began yoga practice.

And then eventually went through the teacher training and it was life changing and life saving.

Adam Coelho: [00:26:02] Amazing. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that and exploring that because it's definitely something that I feel and, it's good to have self-awareness around it, that, that even having that story in my head because for a long time I was completely unaware of the story going through my head.

Mindfulness obviously helped me become aware of that and yeah, just recognizing like, Oh, I might be headed for burnout. So like I have a three-week vacation coming up though. It's like the longest vacation I've taken in a very long time and I'm so glad to be setting myself up so I can just not think about.

Advertising or technology or anything. And I'm also trying to like, not just schedule it with everything for the podcast and for the various things that I'm involved in, like the inner MBA and that I'm super behind on. So I'm trying not to just fill it up and make it just like a different type of work, like to actually give myself some rest and some good for 

Joyce Marter: [00:27:01] you.

Yeah. That takes intention. So I'm so glad that you're doing that for yourself and it's such a huge part of work-life balance. So good. 

Adam Coelho: [00:27:11] Yeah. Let's see how it goes. Okay, so let's switch gears. Obviously you have a book coming out called the financial mindset fix, which you can. Pre-order at financial mindset, fixed.com.

And I'm curious, you are a psychotherapist. Talking to clients, building, building your own business of expanding the practice to up to about a hundred people. And I think it's now 200 a therapist, when did you get interested in money and how did this focus on money in our mindsets around money come to light for you?

Joyce Marter: [00:27:48] Thank you so much for asking as I was working in my therapy practice, I noticed a surprising trend. I noticed that no matter what my client was presenting for therapy for across the board, my clients, as they made progress in therapy, they started earning more money. They started getting raises and promotions and starting their own businesses, starting side hustles.

And I was like, why is this happening? Because we're not even talking about money. And I realized that it's because even if they were presenting with depression, anxiety, relationship issues, we were always working on their underlying self-esteem and their relationship with themselves and their sense of self-worth and the higher our self-worth Susie Orman and Dave Ramsey had found this as well as financial experts, the hierarchy self-worth the higher our net worth.

Isn't that interesting? And it doesn't work the other way around if we have high net worth that doesn't necessarily lead to high self-worth, but if we work on our relationship with ourselves and our self esteem, we feel good about ourselves. We take better care of ourselves. We do work that is aligned with our spirit and our mission in the world.

And we advocate for ourselves in a way that is more assertive and confident. We might negotiate better. And so that leads to financial prosperity. So I became very interested in the psychology of money in therapy, land, cognitive behavioral therapy is highly empirically supported, and it says that our thoughts precede, our emotions and behaviors.

So I noticed in my clients after 20 years of practicing noticed really significant trends in clients who had self limiting beliefs around their financial lives Oh, I could never earn that. Or the most I'm ever going to earn as, as plateaued out. And then those who had abundant thinking and kind of the sky's the limit tended to earn more and to prosper.

And and I experienced that myself as an entrepreneur. I had a coffee with my friend, Steve early on in starting my business. I started my business with $500 and 50,000 of student loans. And this was in the mid nineties. And Steve said to me, how much money do you want to make? And I said, Oh I'd be happy if I made $60,000 a year.

And he said, yeah, Ooh. 60 is yeah, I don't, I want to make well over a hundred. And I said do you think that's possible? And he said, of course that's possible. And that year I made 60 and Steve made over a hundred. And Steve went on to be on shark tank. And one, he was on Oprah's favorite things.

He started all these different businesses. So I was like, Oh my gosh, I am setting my own ceilings with self limiting beliefs. So I started to change my psychology of my money, my, my belief systems around money. And my own therapist said to me, joyous, what do you think of when I say the word money and I said, money is stressful.

And she said no wonder you make it go away. So I did my own work as I was helping my clients on shifting my emotions around money. I dealt with a lot of financial anxiety as my business grew. We ended up getting in cashflow hell, because as the bigger we got, the more money was outstanding and insurance.

And I actually thought I was going to have to file a business bankruptcy and experienced crippling financial anxiety. And it was at that time that I learned a lot about the importance of accessing support and humility, detaching from my ego, getting help from everywhere. I could find it. And I'm so happy that we together with my leadership team, we were able to turn the ship around and I was able to successfully sell the practice a few years ago when it was grossing several million a year.

And I love helping other entrepreneurs and people shift their thinking about money and prosperity and creating a life of work-life balance as well as, supported, loving relationships and self care and living an abundant holistically, successful life.

Adam Coelho: [00:32:33] Very cool. Yeah, we could go in any direction. There's so much there. 

Something that then very alive for me is related to what you were describing, where, our thoughts ultimately create our reality. And, in search inside yourself, we talk about envisioning and we do so in the context of the predicting brain, I don't know if you are familiar with the study that Regina Polly did .

I think it was a while ago, but it's all about the predictive nature of our brain. And neuro-plasticity is at play as well. 

How do you think about people envisioning the life that they want and the impact that has on the thoughts that they have, the emotions they have, the actions that they take?

What are your thoughts on that? 

Joyce Marter: [00:33:23] Vision is another chapter of my book. And so I think it's so important for us to have a vision. I had, I saw a career counselor myself years ago before I had kids. And I told her that I really wanted to start my own business, but I also wanted to be a mom and I wasn't sure what to prioritize.

And she said, Joyce, you have to plan your career in the context of your life, not the other way around. And that set the tone for my whole business. It's why I named it urban balance because I knew motherhood was my highest role. And I wanted a work that would support my personal and family life.

And believe when we have a vision, again, we can't set our own ceilings. So we need to blow that out with the abundant thinking and expand it to the biggest vision possible instead of trying to keep ourselves safe. And that takes a lot of confidence. It takes some risk tolerance. And in another chapter on positivity, I talk about.

Acting as if which is a tool in psychology that was developed by Alfred Adler. And it, it sounds ridiculous, but it's pretending you've achieved. You've already achieved your goals. So I once was speaking to a conference and I had everyone introduce themselves to each other and they went around and flatly said Oh, Hey, I'm joyous.

I'm a therapist. Hey, hi. And everyone sat down. And then I asked them to reintroduce themselves later in the day as if they had achieved their greatest vision. And people were really uncomfortable and embarrassed and they didn't want to admit it. And they were like, wait what are we supposed to do?

And then once they did it and they went around, they were like, I am an international best seller. I'm a Pulitzer prize winner. Or I own a global corporation and people were loud and excited and I couldn't get them to stop talking. But I did that myself. After having years of rejection with my book, I walked around my house saying, aye, And like Brenae Brown and I am a international speaker and author, and my best friend accused me of psychotic optimism.

She's a therapist, but I believe that led to it shifted my thinking. And I'm with the publisher. Brenae Brown now. Sounds true. So I believe that if we shift our mindset that we can expand our lives significantly. Our thoughts do create our lives through self fulfilling prophecies.

So if we're setting our own ceilings, it's not going to go great. 

Adam Coelho: [00:36:11] Yeah. Yeah. When I, I tell this has been a huge area of my life. Once I became aware of this predicting brain which essentially is the fact that we're telling ourselves stories about how our life is going to be, and then we're acting out those stories, and we can become aware of those stories and we can change those stories. Consciously as a game changer, 

Joyce Marter: [00:36:35] it is a game changer and I'd love to add to that B in psychology, they say that in narrative therapy, they say we're both the protagonist of our life story and also the author. And so we have these narratives, like you said.

And I had one of those where my book wasn't getting published for years and I saw my friend Randy at a party and he said, Hey, Joyce, how's your book. And I was like, Oh, it's not going so well. And he said, you need to see my mom. And I said, your monk. And he said, yeah, my Buddhist monk, I think he can help you.

So I made an appointment with his monk. He was not Tibetan looking monk that I was imagining he was a regular old guy living in a North shore suburb of Chicago. And he asked me what brought me to him. I knew early. Yeah. And in speaking with him that he was one of the smartest people I know ever talked to he was talking about how science meets spirituality, et cetera.

And he, yeah, you asked me why I was there and explained all the reasons why my book was happening. And he said, I have your answer. And I was like, Oh my God, gosh, what is it? I was all nervous and excited. And he wrote something on a little piece of paper and he held me for me. And it said, WT, AF. And I was like, are you being serious?

Like what? I was mad. I was like, what do you mean? And he said, weaken the fiction that you're telling yourself, all these excuses and rationalizations. And so I think, yeah, our brains get comfortable with the narrative and that's our thought pattern, our group that we go to and we have to act as if we have to expand our comfort zone, we have to believe that it is possible and access to support in order to make our dreams come to fruition.

Adam Coelho: [00:38:35] Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that brings up a great point as well about this concept. It's This works both in the negative and in the positive direction. And so if you're telling yourself, Oh, just my luck, these things, bad things always happen to me. This again you just are spotting evidence over and over again, that bad things happen to you.

And then guess what's going to happen. Bad things are going to happen because you're expecting them. And the same is true of positivity. If you expect good things to happen, right? Like you described before you were expecting 60,000 and your friend Steve was expecting a hundred thousand or more, and you got what you expected.

Joyce Marter: [00:39:12] Yes, absolutely. Yes. So important for us to be mindful of that negative thinking and how it shapes our lives, 

Adam Coelho: [00:39:21] reprogram that. And so I'd love to explore the book a little bit more. But as I mentioned, this has been a big thing on my mind and this was one of the areas of the search inside yourself course that was so meaningful to me because I've seen so many different ways that envisioning has that one on the negative side was limiting me and then turning that around and then just really leaning into it has made a huge difference in my life. And I'm  feeling very called to create a workshop that explores this concept in detail and really creates a space and a container to one, explore your ideal future.

Obviously this podcast is about mindfulness and financial independence and exploring what does it look like? What is the life you want to be living look like? And. Again, that, what do you call it? Imagining as if, yeah, and that's, really writing it as if it's already true today and then creating the environment where not only can you define that vision, but you can discuss it through mindful listening with other people.

You can explore what it would feel like, and then provide some practices around the beliefs, practicing the beliefs that you feel you'll need to create that in your life. And as someone who has a career in speaking and corporate training, I'm just curious as to what your advice to me would be on, should I do it. Am I qualified to do it? And then how you would go about making that a reality. 

Joyce Marter: [00:41:08] Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I think when you have an idea and you feel called to do something I think of that as your professional manifesto or your personal mission, and you're identifying your unique gifts with a need in the world.

And so I think, whipping out your magic wand and envisioning the best case scenario of what that workshop would look at and thinking about the win-win, what is the intention like, what do you want to offer to the attendees? How do you want to impact their lives? How do you want them to feel afterwards?

And like in sports psychology, imagine visualizing yourself, giving those workshops, people, loving them, receiving them well that expanding by other people, giving your workshop, or however you'd like to do that, having virtual platforms. And then I affirmations are best stated in the present.

So you can ha you can state those affirmations exactly. As you said, that you've already achieved them in my book. I also recommend writing out in the I did this myself personally during the time of difficulty after I'd gone through divorce and some hardship. And I wrote a letter in my journal about what I wanted my life to look like, but I wrote it in the present tense.

Like I live a supported and vibrant life with prosperity and I'm speaking and I'm writing and I have a loving partner and my kids are thriving. And five years later, my life  achieved that. Of course, none of us is perfect and we're all works in progress.

But when you put some intention toward that, I also love vision boards. So I love having people create those and workshops as well. And my book has a lot of exercises and tools and techniques that are proven from psychology and new ones that I've developed that actually are a mental fitness program for an abundant life.

So you could use some of my tools in your workshops and absolutely feel free to do that. I would love that. 

Adam Coelho: [00:43:19] Yeah. That's why I wanted to ask you because I was, going through the mental wealth quiz and seeing the concepts and just reading your one sheet or which I'm going to steal that idea.

That is a beautiful one sheeter, just like here's who I am. Here's what people ask me about. So cool. And yeah, it was just like, it seems like you have thought through a lot of this already. And yeah, I appreciate you sh for first for the encouragement, but also just the way of thinking through it.

And it's funny because it's like, what you just described is what I just described for the workshop. It's dude, do the workshop for yourself for the workshop. Yeah. The irony makes sense. It does make sense. Okay. So let's, explore the book a little bit more, talk a little bit about the structure of the book and what you want to offer the people reading 

Joyce Marter: [00:44:13] it.

Oh, my gosh, this book comes from my heart. I have such a burning desire and passion to help people heal and recover and prosper and thrive. And so the book is based actually on a talk that I've given for about 20 years, started for small businesses in the Chicago area, and now I've given them it for fortune 500 companies.

It's called the psychology of success. And the book is based on the 12 mindsets that I've identified through my practice and also my own entrepreneurial endeavors that lead to greater financial prosperity and holistic success, including mental wellness. So each of the mindsets I hired a researcher is empirically proven to promote both mental health and financial health and resilience.

And so each chapter starts out with a little story of my own journey and an effort to normalize people's experiences and insights. Inspire them. I share really thoughtful, beautiful stories from my clients. I it's been such an honor to work with people from all walks of lives and I've learned so much from my clients.

So the book is filled with their stories and examples. And  the book is a program. So I have exercises and tools that are really easy to use from psychology. That therapists would teach you if you went to your therapy sessions and then also these innovative tools, like the wheels that I've mentioned that are ways of measuring yourself in these 12 mindsets.

And when we practice them, then we're cultivating a holistic life of abundance.

Adam Coelho: [00:46:02] That's wonderful. Yeah, it sounds super interesting. And I cannot wait to read it. So  A question we discussed before we started recording was around this idea of enough. And I think that this concept of reaching enough or feeling like you have enough applies to money, certainly, but also there's so many other aspects of life where we can feel scarcity  rather than abundance or sufficiency or enough.

 What are your thoughts on what is enough? How do identify enough within your own life? And yeah, I'll stop there. 

Joyce Marter: [00:46:38] It's a beautiful question. In my book, I have a chapter on essence and in that chapter, I talk about ego and the importance of learning to detach from our ego and connect with our essence, which is our deeper self, our true self.

Some people might call it. If you believe in the mind body spirit connection, the ego is our mind and the essence is our spirits. And so I think enough newness. Is a spiritual concept. So the ego is never satisfied. Enough is never enough. We want more money more possessions, more titles, more accomplishments to feed the ego.

And so when we can balance that with the connection, with our deeper self, our highest self then we can look at our whole lives in balance, our work with our other areas of wellness and success in our relationships and in our personal lives and in our hobbies and other areas of enjoyment and fulfillment.

In the book I share a story of two men and one man is  wildly successful and the other  man less so and the man who is less so successful said to the more successful man, but I have something you will never have. And the successful man side what's that, and the other man said enough. And so that space of contentment and satisfaction and it really inner peace.

When we can live in a way that we're practicing gratitude, we're honoring all that we've achieved all that. We have all of our blessings. And then also, looking at growing as a way of doing good in the world, I'm not talking about financial wealth from a perspective of greed.

I'm talking about it being of service to the world. When we live a bigger life, we can employ people. We can help people. We can offer charity, we can offer internships and mentoring. So we're  being of greater service. And so it's really all about balance. And so my book is based on these 12 mindsets and I have a wheel where you're looking to balance those 12 mindsets to have a holistically successful life, instead of getting off track and getting focused on that materialism and the financial aspect of it. 

Adam Coelho: [00:49:21] The wheel sounds very useful, because if you don't have a balanced wheel, it's just a real bumpy ride, absolutely. 

 I find it very challenging.  There's certainly work that I can do on my financial mindsets, because I definitely feel some underlying scarcity.

Even though there's no real need to. Very privileged and fortunate to have a great job, to have saved a good amount of money to have, wealth in many areas at aspects of my life relationships work so many different areas, but yet there's still this feeling of not enough.

There's , I'm not where I want to be in, like for just the podcast, for instance, oh, not enough listeners, not enough. It's a lot around and not doing enough even, I'm not, I gotta be doing more on Instagram and I gotta be. Making this envisioning course and I, Oh, I want to do things on clubhouse.

It's just so many things. And a lot of them are probably distractions. 

 That's why I'm so attracted to that concept that I mentioned earlier in the wisdom 2.0, talk about gratefulness from Kristi Nelson is just because that feels,  I want to act from a place of enough.

I want to act from a place of gratefulness for what I have . I've spent a lot of time thinking if only this then I'll be happy, then it will be great. If only I, made this envisioning course, then I'll be happy.

And if only I was retired early, and I wasn't working full time for Google, then I would be happy and then I could teach mindfulness, and get paid for it. But like the more I come back to gratefulness and just turn my perspective a little bit, I realize I already have everything I want.

And it's really interesting, but I lose it again and again, and maybe it's just a practice of coming back to that feeling. Yeah. I don't know where I'm going with this. I'm just, 

Joyce Marter: [00:51:28] you said a lot of things that I'd like to speak to. I think that we're all beggar sitting on a golden bench. And you said you're thinking, you've got to attain something outside of yourself and really you have everything you need, your resources are within you.

You're not alone in your feelings. I think we all feel that way. And when you brought up clubhouse, I was like, Oh my gosh, I got nervous because I need to do that too. We were in my that's on my list. So I feel similarly to you. And I think many of us do in this social media world, we compare our insides to other people's outsides and we feel inadequate and that we've got to do something to get to the next level and be okay, or be able to be successful, whatever that means to us.

And so people come into therapy and they're focused on externals. I want to achieve this. I want to be that. I want to have this. And really we need to get the inside, and the outside will fall into place. Eckert totally said that who's one of my favorite authors. And when we get right with ourselves through mindfulness practices and we're connected with our essence and we're at peace and we're in a mindset of gratitude. I think it is a practice.

I wish there was an easy. Pill to take or magic fix to, to achieve a holistic life of success. But it's really cultivating that life through a series of practices. And none of us is perfect and we all have setbacks and challenges. It's how we respond to those by having a growth mindset and continuing to sprinkle the seeds.

So every podcast that you do, every person that you meet is it's like the branches of a tree  it's expanding your vision and bringing it one step further. And I believe this is a spiritual concept. I believe in divine timing. That sometimes things don't happen until they're ready or until it's the right timing in the world.

We're all exactly where we should be. We are all learning and growing and developing and we're just on different trajectories. But my hope is that this book is really a tool for people to use these mindsets and exercises, to help keep them on track and help keep them balanced and expanding and unfolding into their greatest selves that blossoming into their best selves personally and professionally.

That's my favorite thing as a therapist is to show my clients all their strengths and gifts and support them in, living a great life. And that's what I want to do for others through the 

Adam Coelho: [00:54:17] book. Yeah that's wonderful. Yeah. And I think that's very needed. You mentioned  the idea of a tree and  the idea of planting seeds and and also the idea of just being exactly where you are.

I think it's all about trusting yourself, trusting what is trusting your experience of this is what's happening. And I think that's mindfulness and awareness . 

Yeah, exactly. And I've been trying to relax more and more into that instead of just striving.

And it's interesting because the more, I just ease up the better things go in my life. And even just from thinking back, like when I was applying to colleges, like I was like super stressed about the SATs. And then at some point I was just like, all right, whatever, and I had already scheduled a couple additional like times to take the test and I just stopped caring.

And my score just went up. It went up like 150 points. Oh my 

Joyce Marter: [00:55:11] goodness. That's amazing. Striving is an aspect of ego and striving as something that they talk about in Buddhism and in yoga philosophies that, and the idea of non-striving and as a type a person, I didn't understand. I'm like, wait a minute.

What? Not none striving. And then that leads to success. So that's been something I've had to. Workout to pulling back and being and then, I believe then you attract relationships and experiences and opportunities that are more aligned with your mission. 

Adam Coelho: [00:55:50] Absolutely. And I got off track in my comment there, but you just brought me back, but the seeds and the branches and the connecting with other people, if you trust the process and you trust yourself, and that everything happens in its own time then, and you're clear on what you want.

I think that's getting back to that envisioning piece, right? When you're clear on what you want, you can speak to it, just like at that, at, in that session you led where people were saying, I am this right. And when you talk to people about what you, what your vision is, then they're aware of it and they can either help you, or at least even just be ready when and think of you when something comes along that might help you move towards that vision.

And I've experienced that so many times. 

Joyce Marter: [00:56:39] Definitely. Definitely. And I think along with that, it's important to be mindful of the words that you choose. So for example, if a client says to me, they're going for a promotion, I'll ask them do you think that you're going to get it? And a lot of times people will say, Oh, probably not.

There's a lot of great candidates and I'm not as qualified. And then I'll say to them, you know what, then you probably won't. And they're usually like, Oh my gosh, because I'm usually a warm, fuzzy type of therapist. Exactly. But it's true. Like we have to believe in ourselves. So instead of saying, I think I might someday do this instead, say I am doing, I am, whatever it is, I'm a podcast or I'm a blogger, I'm a film producer, I'm an author.

And and really get expanding your identity into accepting that. And speaking with confidence in your language. And I know many of us struggle with imposter syndrome, which is an aspect of ego where we think We're not quite there yet. And I think we're so much more capable than we give ourselves credit for.

We've got to fight with that inner critic which is something else that I talk about in our book turning down the inner critic and becoming our own compassionate advocate. 

Adam Coelho: [00:57:59] All great stuff, all very important stuff. Okay. So let's switch gears now into what I call the mindful fire final four.

And the first question is what are your thoughts on the financial independence retire early movement or community, or even the concept of it? 

Joyce Marter: [00:58:20] I think a lot of people are taking early retirement now is people are burnt out. And I think that is a movement. And if people are blessed, and fortunate enough to have the ability to do that I'm seeing a lot of people recreating themselves and starting a new business.

So they might be quitting their careers as it was, but then pursuing maybe something they forgot about years ago, maybe they had a dream of being a musician or being an artist or writing a book or whatever it might be. And so getting back to those earlier interests or being with animals, having horses, whatever it is.

So I think that retirement is a time of metamorphosis. There's a loss. Of the way things were, but there's also a rebirth of a new life. And so it's a great opportunity to be intentional about what you want that to look like.

Adam Coelho: [00:59:21] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's interesting because obviously I think about a lot about this, and we were talking before we started recording that on episode six of the podcast a friend of mine, Morgan BRCA, who's a professional mural artist. She was making fun of me a little bit or joking with me in that I want to retire to work.

For myself essentially. And I'm like, yeah, that's it. That's what I want to do. And so it's definitely something I'm thinking about a lot. And also my parents are at the point, not necessarily retiring early, but they are at a point where they're selling. They're the last of their assisted living facilities in Florida and are going to have a lot of time on their hands and hopefully a lot less stress because as you can imagine, pandemic plus assisted living facility is not a recipe for relaxation.

Wow. I can 

Joyce Marter: [01:00:16] imagine. Yeah. Good for them 

Adam Coelho: [01:00:18] and good for you. Yeah. Fingers crossed and there'll be visiting me here in at the end of the month. So I haven't seen them in over a year and they haven't seen my little boy be wonderful. Yeah, 

Joyce Marter: [01:00:29] absolutely. Beautiful. 

Adam Coelho: [01:00:33] Second question is what advice would you give to someone.

Early on their path to financial independence, or we talked about the movement, You wrote these 12 mindsets, if you could only give one piece of advice to someone just getting started with their path to financial independence, what would you tell them 

Joyce Marter: [01:00:53] become financially literate? Listening to money, podcasts, listening to books, taking personal finance courses finding a financial advisor or planner.

In my book, I have a financial health wheel, which kind of identifies the various aspects of financial health. So maybe using that as a tool to make sure that you are tending to each of those areas of your financial wellness. And which includes, all the, actually each spoke of that financial health wheel is related to a chapter of my book.

So having an abundance mindset being, how can you be financially resilient? How can you be positive and negotiate for the best in your financial transactions? How can you access, support? How can you be mindful of how your own self-sabotage, we all have mental health issues that may self-sabotage our earnings and our financial health.

So how do we become cognizant of that might be some financial denial or some. Addictive or compulsive quality as it relates to our financial life. I think, again, financial literacy getting support and using programs like the financial mindset fixed to, to cultivate financial health.

Adam Coelho: [01:02:20] Very good. Yeah. I think it's really important to realize it doesn't have to be so complicated, right? A book that I read called the simple path to wealth by JL Collins was super helpful for me because it was just like, it wasn't so much about the mindset of things. That was aspects of it, but it was really like this doesn't have to be so complicated.

They want you to think it needs to be so they can make money off of you, but just go with the simple path and you'll be just fine. And I feel like there's a huge aspect of. Confidence and clarity and power that comes from just knowing your situation. And having clarity on that helps a lot to move forward.

Joyce Marter: [01:03:03] Yes, absolutely. Yeah. The research shows that two thirds of Americans are not financially literate and most people do not have savings. I think it's. It's less than at that of more than a thousand dollars. So many Americans are really struggling and are in financial denial. So yeah, it's important to transcend fear and become financially conscious and apply mindfulness to finance.

So that you can be intentional about your plan and stay on 

Adam Coelho: [01:03:40] track. Absolutely. Okay. So the third question is what piece of advice would you give to someone getting started with mindfulness and meditation? 

Joyce Marter: [01:03:51] Oh my gosh. It's a practice. And I think in the first class that I attended one of the participants said.

I just don't get it. I feel am I supposed to think about nothing or am I supposed to not think at all, there's no wrong way to do it. I think, just getting started again, whether it's with one of those apps, like calm or med or Headspace, or joining a meditation group, it's really about settling yourself, quieting yourself, connecting with the breath and you can't do it wrong.

And I love even walking or active meditations, things like gardening or running or walking even can be meditations, as long as you're connecting with your senses while you're doing it and noticing your thoughts rather than reacting to them.

Adam Coelho: [01:04:43] Great advice. Yeah. I think a lot of people think they're doing it wrong. And I certainly did when I started meditating and I was convinced of it actually. And and I actually gave up for awhile because of that. But it's really helpful to realize that it's not about feeling a certain way. It's not about clearing your mind.

It is just simply a practice of seeing what's going on, connecting with your breath. As you said, connecting with your experience as it is, and being kind to yourself throughout the whole process. 

Joyce Marter: [01:05:15] It's so helpful. It helps us get out of our heads and into our heart and our gut and the wisdom of the body.

Adam Coelho: [01:05:21] Absolutely. All right. And the final question is where can people find your book and connect with you and what you're up to. 

Joyce Marter: [01:05:30] Thank you so much. So my book can be found at financial mindset, fixed.com and it's available for pre-sales on Amazon and target and Walmart and indie bookstores and everything.

And my website is Joyce martyr.com. So J O Y C E M a R T E r.com. And I'm on all the major social media networks as well, and would love to connect with people and help any way I can. 

Adam Coelho: [01:05:58] Wonderful. Yeah. Your social media game is a model of what I'm looking to do. It's it's great. I don't know how you keep up with all that, but it's wonderful.

I like it. 

Joyce Marter: [01:06:09] Thank you so much. I have a great team behind me, digital natives in New York. Yeah. 

Adam Coelho: [01:06:14] Oh, nice. Nice. So you have some help. That's good. That makes a lot more sense. Cause I'm trying to do this myself and I'm just like, yeah, it's a whole thing, but it's back to the, not enough, but. In any event, I will link all of that in the show notes.

And I invite people to definitely pre-order the book at financial mindset, fixed.com. I can't wait to read it. And I think that people will get a lot out of it. So I am happy to put all of that in there so people can check out your work. 

Joyce Marter: [01:06:44] Thank you so much, Adam. I'm so excited for you and all your important work.

You're doing a lot of good in the world, and I'm grateful for that. 

Adam Coelho: [01:06:54] I appreciate that. And thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast choice. 

Joyce Marter: [01:06:59] My pleasure. 

Adam Coelho: [01:07:00] Thank you.

Thanks so much for joining me on today's episode of the mindful fire podcast. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Joyce Marter. If you got value from today's episode, I invite you to please hit subscribe wherever you're listening to this just lets the providers know you're getting value from the episodes.

And you'd like to be here when we produce additional content. 

And if you'd like to check out and pre-order, Joyce's upcoming book, the financial mindset fix you can do so at financial mindset fix.com.

 As a reminder, you can get the full show notes for today's episode, including all of the books, resources, and links we discussed mindfulfire.org /thirty. 

 As a reminder, each week on Tuesday, as part of the mindful fire podcast, I released either a guided meditation or an inspiring interview like this. So make sure to subscribe, to receive each of these episodes.

   Thanks again. And I'll catch you next time on the mindful fire podcast