115 : Investing In Your Mental Wealth with Rich Jones

Adam: 2:14

rich, welcome to the Mindful Fire Podcast. I'm so glad to have

Rich Jones: 2:17

you here, Adam. Thanks for having me. Really looking forward to this one.

Adam: 2:20

Yeah, it's been a long time coming, for the audience, just a quick, note on how Rich and I know each other. we actually met, four years ago, five years ago, something like that. We both work at Google and I was facilitating a workshop called Search Inside Yourself, which is an emotional intelligence leadership course that teaches those topics through mindfulness. And I was teaching a course in Mountain View, California at Google's headquarters and. Rich was in my class and at some point he raised his hand and was sharing, and I think you were talking about something about your podcast, that you had a podcast. And at that point I just had a faint idea that maybe at some point I'd like to explore a podcast. And I was like, I gotta go talk to him. So basically during the break, the lunch break, I just went and bombarded him with 50 questions about podcasting and all the stuff that he was working on, and fortunately we've kept in touch since and caught up every once in a while, always have good chats and now I was on your podcast and now you're on my podcast. So really excited to have you here and excited to explore this topic of what it means to invest in yourself and what mental wealth means as well. So again, welcome rich.

Rich Jones: 3:40

Thank you. And it's been interesting because even what mental wealth is, has evolved for me even over the last six months, over the last year from the time that I changed the name of the show, which was in 2021. I wanna say that was so from the time that I changed the show then. Thinking a lot more about the financial to doing a lot of this deep healing work and investing in myself as I know we're gonna talk about today, and having this mental and emotional space and saying, Ooh, money is wealth too, but this space that I'm creating for myself, these opportunities that I'm creating because of the space that I have, that is equally as important as the financial wealth, if not more important. So really excited to have this conversation.

Adam: 4:24

Yeah, and I really loved the rebrand one, I loved the play on words mental wealth, right? It's just mental health wealth, right? Like I felt like it was a perfect segue for you, but just this idea that mental wealth is more important than the money piece, right? The money piece is certainly important, don't get me wrong, but you can have mental wealth without money, right? But you really need to make it a priority. And so I think that. It really shows that there's just a whole lot more to living a rich life or a wealthy life than just having money in your bank account. So I love that

Rich Jones: 5:06

and yeah, I totally agree. And I see wellbeing and wellness in particular. It's a lifelong journey. So even with mental wealth, it doesn't mean things are perfect. Things are going magically. Forever. Even like with the word balance, like there is never a perfect state of balance. It's just a constant act of things, coming in, coming out. Sometimes you have time for things more than others. Sometimes that switches. So I, yeah, I It's fully there. Fully there with you. Exactly.

Adam: 5:36

Alright, rich, so we hinted at your journey, but would love for you to just share a little bit about who you are, your journey, and what you're up to these days.

Rich Jones: 5:44

Yeah, so I'm a health and performance coach, speaker and masters, track and field athlete on top of working in diversity, equity and inclusion, by day at Google. And, really the most biggest thing that's been happening over these past couple of years is, getting back into track and field after not competing for 15 years. And the way that I was able to create space through that actually goes back to 2020 when I made the decision to quit alcohol. So a lot for a lot of the time before that. And I've been working in corporate America since 2005, but for a lot of the time before that, I struggled with alcohol. I struggled with alcohol up until 2 20 20, so basically struggling with it for most of my adult life. And I've had roles and career moves and hosted podcasts and been on stages and things like that. But what I also found is I kept getting what I wanted and I still wasn't happy. Until I made that decision to one stop alcohol. And people think that was the beginning of the healing journey, but it wasn't. It was the beginning of the physical healing in terms of the damage that I had done to my body. But the mental and emotional healing would come later that would really start in 2022. So I usually take this approach to, oh, people say, tell me about yourself. And it's Ooh, I thought you were gonna talk about, the experience growing up and how you ended up a coach. And I'm like, this is how I ended up a coach. Because when I made that decision to quit, I also started working with, a leadership coach around the same time. And then, I took a mental health leave from work, which we could talk more about, if it makes sense. And, learning about the diagnosis of what I've lived with all of the time and everything that I've done since then. And now, really my goal is to show people what's possible, to show people what can be accomplished if you're willing to commit to doing the work. And even with my podcast, a mental wealth show. My thing is, yes, to bring on people who are experts in different areas, and yes, to share insights and tips as a health and performance coach, but it's also to show that like the stuff that I'm talking about, I've lived it, I've been through it, the doubt, and I'm very vulnerable, very honest. As folks may hear today, the doubts that I felt, the times where it looked like I was winning, but I wasn't sitting at my desk having panic attacks with the camera off during work meetings. I talk about all that stuff because that's part of life and, I can't remember who said it to me, but someone, I think it might have been my coach, shout out to Kevon that what's most private or what's most personal is what's most universal, which I thought was really interesting because sometimes I'm sharing this stuff. You don't get, you know how it is as a podcast or you don't get feedback. It's it sounds are people listening? Are people connecting? And you have to trust. When you're sharing stuff like this, that it actually is resonating with people because these are the things that folks think, but normally don't say. Yeah,

Adam: 8:33

absolutely. Honestly, that has been a big realization for me, even just in the last couple days. Just the fact that the more real and more vulnerable you can be with your story and the struggles that you've gone through, the more people resonate with it. Like I was mentioning to you before that I was on a, I had a episode that I just dropped this week with Liz Carroll, the Mindful Money Coach, and I was getting very real about my own struggles with scarcity mindset, with not being willing to invest in myself or my projects. And anyone who's listened to this podcast for any length of time knows that I just keep it real, and I basically turn every episode. Into a free coaching call slash therapy session with the guest. Yeah. And, but, and sometimes it feels weird to do that, but the feedback that I've been getting is wow, that's so refreshing and so relatable and, especially for like these, finance podcasts or whatever we're, it's just like bunch of people like showing up as experts and giving their expert opinion and things like that. Everyone has struggles, everyone has insecurities and doubts and things that they're working on. And so I think that the more that we can show that, the more that people connect with us and what we're doing. So it's been a big realization for me even in the last couple days. And I know listening to your podcast that I feel that for with yours as.

Rich Jones: 9:57

Yeah, and there's an element and your show being about mindfulness, it's something I have to practice a lot of, especially as someone with a D H D and getting back to sinner and things like that. but also there's this element of self-compassion that's required too, because in the corporate context, working in corporate America, going into any company, you can figure out what the rules are, the lay of the land, how things work, what it takes to get promoted. I don't wanna use the word manipulate, but you learn how to play the game. Whereas with some of this other stuff, particularly when you get into entrepreneurial pursuits, and I'll put podcasting in that bucket, whether or not you're doing it for money, there's a lot that is just outta your. And there are things that you may know, you may put out an episode and you're like, Ooh, this one's really gonna kill'em. This is gonna go double platinum. And it goes double wood. If you, if you've had that experience. And I've had to have

Adam: 10:48

a lot of, sure. I have. Yes.

Rich Jones: 10:49

Yeah. So I've had to have a lot of self compassion, especially as someone that's pivoting. So imagine someone doing this in their career. This is applicable to anyone, whether someone doing it in their career, in their business, where as you're learning, and in some instances when you're making a pivot, you feel like you're starting over and you're having to learn things again from scratch. And you're making mistakes and things that you haven't, done in a long time. I've had moments that have made me realize am I actually getting old? Am I now one of the older generations? Cuz I don't understand how this thing works. So I've had to have a lot of self-compassion too, while along this journey as I've, even with like therapy, how people think oh, you go to it and then there's a point where the healing is done. The healing is not just done. Healing is forever. So I've even had points where I've been triggered by something and went back into what felt like an old loop or an old cycle, at least in mental thoughts, not in actual behaviors. Things like drinking and stuff like that. And I've had to remind myself that a humans have thoughts, just like anything else. Even the feelings that come with it, those will go away like everything else has. So even as when, especially when you're doing something as lonely as this, as creating a podcast or running your own business can be that self iPASS, that self-compassion is crucial too.

Adam: 12:01

Yeah, it's a really good point. And I've found that this pursuit, it's like a, it's like a self-awareness magnifier, right? Because all the things that come up that, like for me, procrastination, perfectionism, avoidance, right? All these things that like. It's like beating myself up oh, it's not far enough, or it's not good enough, or it's whatever. It comes up all the time. And it's just like such a, if you can bring that self-compassion, if you can bring that mindfulness, that ability to see with a, as much objectivity as possible and kindness and curiosity, you can be like, oh wow, there's that pattern again. Oh, okay. This is interesting. And you can like work, work through it a little bit and it's gonna keep coming up. That's, I think you made a great point. Like the healing is not done right and the self-awareness is never done because we're learning and growing and evolving. So these things are lifelong practices in my opinion. Yeah. And sometimes it feels like I want to rush to get there. When I gotta remind myself like, this is a lifelong thing. I don't need to be at any certain point in my business or in my healing or my self-knowledge. Just relax a little bit, man.

Rich Jones: 13:18

Yeah. And it's so tough, especially when you want to do a good job. You've been used to doing things really well for a lot of us, the voices, the beating ourself up is part of how we've gotten to where we've gotten in life. True. Whether that's motivation by fear or motivation by being exposed a as a fraud. I know that's another thing for people where they wanna be on top of each and everything because they feel like if they're not, they're gonna be exposed. That, that, that's another feeling that people deal with. There's also, I think, for, folks who are, let's say, creating social media content, there's what you're actually experiencing versus what you're actually displaying to the world. And there's that for everybody. And I've had the struggle too in the past where, I've been thinking like, ah, I need to be putting myself out here is this and that. And I eventually realized that I need to be, and those I should statements were telling me that I was focusing externally on what other people were doing and what was working for them as opposed to what works for me. So in this season, I've scaled some things back, whether it's, the podcast production frequency. I'd made a push into YouTube for a bit and was like, you know what? For the amount of money this is costing and the return that I'm getting on this and how much stress and anxiety this is creating for me, I need to put this on the back burner for now. And I thought about why I was even so focused on doing it, and it was trying to prove something to like a past audience that's not even my audience anymore, being completely real with you. It was something that I was hanging onto from the past, and I think that's often what can get us in trouble is. Seeking external validation and looking for external, factors to help validate internal things that are going on.

Adam: 14:54

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. My dad has this phrase, what other people think of me as none of my business. I like that, and I try to live that and I'm pretty good. I'm pretty good at that. But the validation thing always comes back. In the environment that we work, right? Everyone we work with was like a straight A student, right? And just I feel like I had something recently where a teacher was Like giving me validation. I was like, this is great. This is great.

Rich Jones: 15:20

I'm still doing this,

Adam: 15:21

dude, I'm 35 years old. Give me a get away from this. Come on. But it's, these are things that we've practiced year again and again. There's not, it's not like you're just gonna realize it intellectually and just put it behind you.

Rich Jones: 15:34

Yeah. And I'm glad that you said the importance of practice and it being again and again, because the clarity that I have right now and the way that I'm speaking right now is not the way that I would've spoken two years ago. It's not the way that I would've spoken a year ago, but it's required at this point, like years of effort to get here. And I know that it's going to be years of effort going forward, and I know we all want the proverbial, blow up where our podcast is getting 25,000 d downloads or, our website is going Nova. I know that I eventually want that even given the pivot that I've just made. But I also know that takes time because I've been doing things online really since 2008, whether it was freelance writing, blogging, podcasting since 2013, and I know now after having seen peers rise, having had my own rise in, when I was in personal finance in terms of what I was talking about, what I was doing there, I know that takes. And so even now, maybe it's part of the self-compassion, maybe it's something else is I have to bring myself back and say, yo, you know how this goes? There's not gonna be, there could be a magic blow up that happens where I get featured somewhere. And even that, like I used to chase the features and if I didn't get included in this list, it was the end of the world. Whereas now I'm just like, I know that this takes time and I know that the longer I wait, the longer it's gonna take to get where I want to go. And I know that consistency or sustained effort over time is what gets results. So I've gotta be able to put my head down and move through that. And that's why one of my affirmations is I will push through the discomfort and fear because those are the things that I run into the most. And if I know that, if I don't move through those things, I'm not gonna ultimately get where I want to go. But again, it took time to get to this.

Adam: 17:18

Yeah. Yeah. And that kind of gets to the theme of what we were talking, what we're talking about here today, which is like, investing in yourself, right? I really like this. Obviously, I'm a big fan of investing. I really like this idea of thinking about everything as investing in yourself, right? Like investing money, right? You put money in the market and it continues to grow, right? You keep showing up, you keep putting money in, right? This same thing can be applied to entrepreneurial pursuits, podcasting, whatever it is. If you keep showing up and doing the work, it's gonna compound, right? And, this same guest I had the other day, Liz, she said, her mantra is, I'll never regret investing in myself right there. There will never be a time where I regret investing in myself because it's, she had a good point. She's if you invest. Money, you could lose that money. And then that's gone, right? She invested in Bitcoin and that went to zero. Whatever she had done one of these, one of these, things that just disappeared. But she's if I invested that in some knowledge or some course, or some education, I have that forever, right? I, it's now part of me, right? And so I'm trying to think about this with varying degrees of success in the healthy eating, exercise, sleep, right? You can think about all these things as like making deposits into the account of you, right? Yeah. And as I said, I have varying degrees of success with this, but would love to hear, maybe how do you think about investing in yourself? so what does that mean to you, investing in yourself?

Rich Jones: 18:54

It's a couple things. One, knowing where you're going because then you're just investing for the sake of investing and you don't really have a strategy behind it, and you don't always have to know the exact endpoint, but you've gotta know your values and you have to have it. You have to have a general idea of where you're going. So investing in for me is doing things for you that serve you in the short term and in the long term, so it could be something as simple as, and investing doesn't always mean it has to be financial either. It could be something as simple as, you know what, I'm gonna start going for a walk once a week so I can get into the habit of moving around. That's something that can be as a simple investment in self, but also if you found yourself stuck in a loop or you find yourself in a cycle where despite your best efforts, you can't seem to get to where you want to go. Then that's probably a time where you need to think about investing in yourself, whether that be afin, a financial investment, whether it be something like a, a coach or, maybe it's working with a consultant, or it could also be investing in taking a course, a program. It could be invested in working with a coach to learn a skill. For example, with me working with a track and field coach, because I knew if I wanted to get back to the level of competitiveness that I wanted to get to, I wasn't gonna be able to close that gap by myself alone, especially in the amount of time that I wanted to be able to do it. So when I think about what it means to, in invest in yourself, it's about doing things selfishly. You could take that word how you want, but it's about doing things selfishly that serve you and help you move toward the life that you want to live, whatever that may be, whatever point in time that is.

Adam: 20:39

I really love what you brought up about having a clear idea of where you want to go, right? It doesn't have to be crystal clear. It doesn't have to be the one and only potential path. It doesn't have to be crystal clear. It doesn't have to be the one and only path, but you have to have a general idea, right? That's why I think envisioning is so powerful, right? Because you set your mind, you create some space to think big about your life, where you want to go, what you want your life to look like, and then you just start moving towards that, right? Little by little your brain does some of the work for you, but you gotta take action yourself and you can just show up and make these little investments, whether they be financial or effort wise or whatever it might be. Once you, if you have that idea, you can start moving towards it, and little by little you start to see the progress. So I think that's a really important point. I'd love to hear, I know investing in yourself has been huge over the last several years, and you've done it in various ways. I'd love to hear how you like your journey of healing and investing in yourself and, would love to hear a little bit more about that. Yeah, and

Rich Jones: 21:48

I said earlier that the things I talk about, I've lived it. And so when I all, even when we're talking about investing in yourself, some of, maybe not every example, but some of the examples I've given are probably from my own personal experience. But even that idea of feeling like despite your best efforts, you feel like you keep coming back to the same place again and again. That's where I was in July, 2020 when I made the decision to quit alcohol. I kept coming back to this place of waking up and feeling like crap and also just professionally and even the way that I felt about. Things like podcasting and some of my creative pursuits, I felt I had that nagging feeling of not being where, I was supposed to be or not being where I wanted to be. Even realizing afterwards that where I thought I wanted to be was based off of what other people were doing and where they were, and the validation that I wanted from, from external folks and from external, factors. And so it was at that point that I started working with a leadership coach. Now, thankfully, I didn't just say, you know what, I'm gonna go seek a coach. I'll be totally honest with you. This brother, somebody who we worked with, this brother, Cavan, I mentioned him earlier, my leadership coach, we'd worked together at Google for a number of months. It might've even been a few years, but at least a number of months on adjacent teams. In the in, in the same org and he was already doing his coaching thing outside of work and I had talked to him, I was still drinking at the time and I remember telling him that, man, I wish I had a role like yours where it created like more space for reflection and time to think and you don't have to spend all day on the phone because I was working in staffing at the time, which recruiting sales, those are just roles where you're constantly in meetings and you're constantly on the phone. And one day, I don't know what led him to extend the offer, but one day he said, Hey, I would love to take you on as a pro bono coaching client. I just see something within you. I don't know what he saw. I'm glad that he saw it, but that ended up being how I started working with him as a coach. And it's one of the best things that I started doing. So I wanna be very clear about that. I didn't say, you know what, I need a coach that did fall into my lap, but I did become a paying customer and stick with it because I saw the impact that it was already having on, on, on my life and my ability to make decisions that served me first. So that was investment one. Eventually, it was just a time investment and it was a, an investment more for my coach because it was pro bono. But eventually that became a paid investment in one that I continued to this day. So that's one example. The second example is even working with a strength and conditioning coach. So I'd mentioned I'd been outta track and field for 15 plus years. And the other thing that I've had a lot of problems with over the years is back in core pain. So I didn't know that it was actually a my core, but I would find myself in situations where I would throw out my back folding a blanket, I would throw out my back, stepping off the curb wrong. These are things that really happened. And, I started working with actually a podcast listener who had reached out to me, heard me mention back pain on the show, gave me a couple tips, and then eventually when I was having like issues, I, we actually started working together. I was like, you know what? I don't think he's a psycho. He's not gonna kill me if he comes to my house. And I started working with him on a paid basis because he was helping me address, address some of the court efficiencies that I had and some of the things that I would find out were leading to hamstring injuries and other injuries that I was having. So had I not. Worked with this strengthened conditioning coach. Shout out to Andrew. I might still be having some of the same core challenges that I had in the past and I wouldn't be able to heal as quickly from when I do have injuries because I would've still been doing the same things that I was doing for years and years that ultimately didn't get results. So it's things like that where you realize you really have to have that self-awareness to realize that, that something's not working. And I realized that with just how I thought about the progress I was making professionally or preneur, I felt that about the pain, the recurring back pain that actually turned out to be a result of weak hip flexors. I wouldn't have learned that if I didn't start working with a strength and conditioning coach. And then the last one, just to give us a nice three, starting to work with a E M D R therapist. So eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, and I started that in September, 2021 when I took a mental health leave from work and learned that I've lived with complex P T S D most of my life, so most people know P T S D. They think someone coming back from the military, they think of things like that. It's a lot broader than that with CPTs d It's usually something related to longer term trauma or repeat events. And I eventually started working with an e MDR therapist on that in 2021. And that's what led to that was really the beginning of the healing right. There was when I started that therapy, because even working with the leadership coach, even having a therapist that I've been working with since 2017, I, so I forgot about that investment because I've been making it for so long. I was still having these issues with emotional memories and how I was responding to certain things and how I, my anxiety and how I was showing up in certain spaces. And so I started investing in this new, not new. I started investing in this therapy methodology because I wanted to put it into some of the other cycles that were happening, things that I felt were holding me back despite the other investments I'd already made in myself. So I hope that gives you a sense of like how it's an ongoing thing where sometimes people will want to invest in you, which is fantastic, but then other times it's about realizing that something's not working, accepting it, letting that ego part go and enlisting the support you need, again, to get to where you want to go. Because even through all this, I've always had some type of vision of where I wanted to be. And it's evolved and changed, especially as I've gotten more in touch with self. But I've always had a general idea and track and field would being one thing. It's something I've thought about for like years. On end. So getting back into that was super clear and made it a lot easier for me to get what I needed to get where I wanted.

Adam: 27:38

Yeah, there's a lot there. And what's really standing out to me is one, the requirement of self-awareness, right? The ability to look within and notice what's working, what's not working. And that takes knowing yourself, right? That takes creating some level of space where you can start to see these patterns a little bit more clearly. And maybe for you, that was you. Partially while you were drinking the repeated patterns there, but then also probably became a lot more clear once you stopped drinking. And once you have that awareness, you, you can, what I'm also hearing is that you realize that you don't have all the information that's gonna get you from here to there. And you had luckily a couple of people in your orbit that you were able, that kind of came to you with, some expertise and you were able to recognize, hey, this person has the information that I need to unlock this part of my life. Whether it be the leadership coach to help you know, who was saw in you, the potential and the probably could recognize what was holding you back and you started working through that. Or the strength and conditioning coach that. Literally knew something that you didn't know and couldn't know. And so you were able to start going to them for their expertise. And those investments really, paved the way for all of the things you were able to do later. And

Rich Jones: 29:05

can I say it also saved me money in the long run when you think about it, because for particularly with the back pain stuff I've been going to doctors, getting prescriptions, buying devices, doing all sorts of other stuff. Yeah. And who knows how many more times, how much more time I could have lost from being down. If you've hurt your back before, like it can really take you out the game. Yeah. And then even

Adam: 29:29

living with chronic back pain. Yeah. For the rest of your life, you could be having surgeries that could put your life at risk and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah. Like absolutely you Yeah. You address the underlying problem. Yeah. Rather than treating the symptoms.

Rich Jones: 29:45

Yeah, exactly. And then something as simple as like back pain, learning that a lot of that was actually with my hips has changed the way that I think about sitting, which is something that I do all the time. And most people I can confidently say most people underestimate the extent that sitting all day like impacts their body. They think it's just sitting I'm like they know they're being, they say couch potato, but no, it's like tightening muscles, it's shortening muscles, it's creating weaknesses and imbalances and those are things I wouldn't have known about. And I can only imagine how many other injuries and things that I would've come upon if I didn't get that knowledge from someone who knew that area better than me. Like this stretch that I've had these past few months, it's like the first time that I've been able to just walk around without any back pain. E even through all like the rehab and everything, there's always been like a little something there that pops up here and there. But these past few months, like I've been the best at like I've been. In years in terms of that pain to the point where, and then this is when you know, is when you just sit down and you have a moment where you do something that normally would hurt and you're like, wait a second, wait, when is the last time I felt, wow, I haven't felt that hip pain, or I haven't felt that issue in three months. Yeah, but look what it took to get here. And part of that was doing a eight week core strengthening challenge to, to start 2023. But again, because I knew the value of the core strength and there were things that I learned from the last track and field season while all fantastic things happened, investing, investing in a track and field coach, investing in a long jump coach, I'm not winning a national championship in 2022 for my age group in the triple jump without investing in a track and field coach. In fact, my focus was just on the long jump because that's what I knew and that's what I did in college. And she saw me at the beginning of practice one day warming up and was like, Hey, how come you don't do this event? You've done it before. I had done it in college, but I wasn't good at it. And she's like, why don't you do this? And we started working on that. And then the first meet that I did that in, I ended up hitting the All-American status based on distance for my age group. Nice. And then at the outdoor championships, I end up, in on my last jump producing the best jump of the other competitors in my age group and some of the other age groups. And I win my first national championship. And then this past, then in, March 10th, turned 40 years old, March 11th, kicked off my 2023 track and field season and won a national championship in the long jump. And again, and this, you can't tell me that this isn't a result of. All the investments that I've made, not just even in the track coach, but in the therapy to, to create the mental space, to also learn that track and field, to me is quite meditative in a way. It's a time where I can get away from everything and just focus on and be fully present and focus on what's happening and have the, those feelings of, those feelings of micro achievement. And there's other things like that too, whether it's like going to the gym and that I've learned like, hey, these are also things that are part of my wellbeing, investing in myself and becoming a certified wellness coach so that I had the formal body and knowledge behind me. And I did that because I saw the power of these other investments that I want to be able to show people like, yo, you can turn things around. So that's what I mean. Again, it's examples of I identifying what you need, whether it's in the short term or the long term. And again, like things have, I didn't think I was gonna be a health and wellness coach two and a half years ago. My coach has been telling me that I was gonna be a coach. He saw me as a coach and I refused to believe it. I thought that I was someone who never wanted to do the trade time for money. But in this season of my life, I've learned I enjoy it. Like it actually recharges me to work with people in that capacity. And that's again, a chance that I wouldn't have taken or something I wouldn't have thought about if I didn't have these various folks in my network or is what I like to call within my life portfolio. Yeah.

Adam: 33:32

Yeah. Example after example that you just gave is the value of, unbiased third party perspective. Your track and field coach, she saw that you had a knack or a,

Rich Jones: 33:44

basically saw me skipping and she ba that's the, yeah, that's how I'll describe it. And she was like, your rhythm is good. Your

Adam: 33:49

rhythm is great. Yeah, exactly. She, her knowledge, her expertise saw in the way that you were moving an opportunity for you that you wouldn't have been able to see yourself. That you quite frankly, probably thought that you weren't good at. Yes. Because you had done it before in college and it wasn't, you didn't do well then, but for whatever reason back then was different. And Yeah. And with the leadership stuff to become a coach and all of that so that third party perspective is super valuable. And honestly, in, in any of the coaching that I've done, whether it be even just like with friends who are trying to make a change or get a job or whatever, or even at work where I'm like looking at a client's website and helping them with something, right? Like me coming in, bringing a perspective that is different than theirs is valuable in itself. And so for each of us, like how can we find people, whether we pay them or they're just friends or they're people, that we work with or whatever, how can we leverage that third party perspective to, See something about ourselves that we might not automatically see. At the same time, I would say continue to invest in knowing yourself and trusting yourself. Because there's a risk, and I've gone down this road of looking outside myself for the answers to other people who seem like they got it all together, are experts. That's usually in, not in this examples that you just gave, but, but I think there's a huge element of needing to know yourself and trust yourself and Yes. And know that you can trust the wisdom that you have of where you want to go and where you've been through and all of that. So it's a balance. I think there's definitely a balance.

Rich Jones: 35:28

Yeah. And it's, and I realize everyone is in different financial spots with different goals, and I think we're striking a good balance of talking about things that cost money, don't, things you can do for yourself investments in time. And I, but I wanna underscore that I've, the things I'm investing in, and I posted this on, LinkedIn as, as well as I invest over$10,000 a year in my development. And I have no issue saying that. People are like, man, some people can't afford that, man. That's just, I'm like, no. I've worked for 15 years. I work in tech in corporate America. There are a lot of people like me Yeah. Who are feeling the imposter syndromes and all of these other things. People who you think are good because of where they work. And they're not actually good.

Adam: 36:12

Far from it in a lot

Rich Jones: 36:12

of cases, but far from it and or work is all that they have. That's their primary identity because they're struggling in so many other areas in terms of what they think about themselves. Yeah. And so where I'm at now, like I, I know that, and I know that there are people who have similar income or have that ability to invest in themselves, but they're not thinking about it. And I want them to know that's, something that's, available to them or could help them get out of whatever mental or emotional rut that they're in.

Adam: 36:42

Yeah. I'll speak for myself. I have realized that I'm unwilling to invest in myself financially. I'm getting better. Like for instance, this year I've invested in like an online personal training thing, which had. Varied, varied success in terms of my sticking to it. But, learned some things, learned some, movements and things like that, which was a good learning. And even just the actual idea, the act of investing, the money in myself was itself a practice and an, something important. But I'm also investing, in a podcast guesting, mastermind coming up here in a little bit, but it, for the longest time, I was just completely unwilling to do it right. And I didn't even realize it. And it just, but the funny thing is I always say like my stock portfolio, and obviously in the last year, most of our stock portfolios have dropped a huge amount, right? It was like 20%, 30% at one point, right? I don't even think about that. But to spend, to invest, a couple hundred dollars or a couple thousand dollars in myself, It seems oh no, I can't do that. Doesn't make any sense, right? It doesn't make any sense. But noticing that, having that self-compassion, right? I don't have to beat myself up about not being willing to invest on myself. I can just be aware of it and say, Hey, is this serving me? Is this what I want? Is what would it look like if I invested myself? What might the benefits be and what stopped? I started to do that, and what's stopping me? Why am I unwilling? Yeah,

Rich Jones: 38:15

as I'd be curious, I'm not gonna put you in the spot, but that was one of the first things I thought about. As you said it is like, what? I wonder what stopped you? Cuz for a lot of us, I'm not saying this was you, but for a lot of us there's a fear or there's a narrative or what does that mean if you investing? If I get a coach, does that mean that I'm not doing something well? Does it mean that I need that type of help? You may be someone who's learned through life experiences to not ask for help. Yeah. So the idea of sharing that, the idea of even having to get vulnerable with somebody for their relationship to work, that in itself could be a cha that freaks people out. So there's a lot of, and I'm not saying any, again, I'm not saying any of those things, are you? But for a lot of people, that's what, it's not just, I want to get this for the free, or I just want it for free. There's usually Yeah. Other things there that are stopping you from making that

Adam: 39:03

investment. And even when it is free. I've had opportunities where like people have been generous and offered to help me, so I just still wouldn't take the action. That's a big thing for me. Actually, it came up on that other podcast. It's I don't, I think that I'm unwilling to invest in myself because one, I don't trust myself to do the work. And then I feel like the money plus the shame of not doing the work. It's just like a bad combination for me. Yes. And then I just feel, so it's oh, I'm not even gonna do it. I'm not gonna stick to it. And, you heard me even talking about the exercise stuff, right? Like I'm, even now I'm, saying, oh, I didn't do it right. There's that fear, but, so that's one thing. So

Rich Jones: 39:45

that's, I'm, I've I love that you said that cuz that's exactly how it goes for a lot of us. And it ends with quitting. Yep. Yeah. It ends with, I say that about diets too, where it's like you started, let's say you're doing keto and then you, or you're doing one of these diets and then you have one snack and you're like, ah, f it, I screwed up. I might as well eat everything that

Adam: 40:05

is me to a tea man. I wake up on the wrong side of the bed. I'm like, let's burn this place to the ground. It's not useful. It's not useful. Yeah. one thing that's been really helpful is that this, that I learned from meditation, you can just start again, right? In meditation, if your mind wanders, whether it's been wandering for one second or 10 minutes, you can always just start again. And more macro, if you've been, haven't been meditating for weeks, you can just start again. And that, I've tried to apply that to every aspect of my life. And right now I need to apply that to fitness. I've been out of it for about a month and it's been tough with my eight month old, but I miss it. And I want, and I know the benefit, right? So I wanna get back to it. Yeah, fitness

Rich Jones: 40:49

is, and that's a common one for a lot of people. It's easy to beat yourself up over that. And I always remind people even with that, to give yourself credit for the things that you are doing. Because as an overachiever and as someone who's constantly looking for the next thing, it can be easy to forget to do. It can be easy to forget to do that. For example, people are like, oh, they, I'll mention I'm a coach, and they're like, oh, I need to work out. I think you might have said the same thing. Ah, I need to work out. And I'm like, have you moved? Have you been moving around? They're like, yeah, I've been, doing treadmill walks and things like that, but I haven't gotten to the gym. And I'm like, and I'm like, that, that movement still counts. Exercise is structured movement, but movement isn't necessarily exercise and you don't have to be exercising at all the times. But if you're moving, that's a good thing. So give yourself credit for the things that you are doing. And even when people aren't giving themselves credit for those things, it's usually because they're, again, looking at what someone else is doing or going off of someone else's barometer or what they've been told at some point in the

Adam: 41:46

time. For what they think they should be doing. Exactly. Yeah. And that's definitely the case with me, right? It's it's this all or nothing thinking, right? If I can't do an hour workout, I might as well not do anything. Yes. It doesn't make sense. And but I love what you're saying about taking in the good, right? Focusing on the things that you are doing. Like I walked probably two or three miles yesterday, right? I went and got off the ferry and walked to the office. It's a 23 minute walk there, 23 minute walk back. That's something, right? That's something. And, it doesn't have to be. And so with that, then you can start to train your mind to be like, what else can I do? I got a five minutes here. Let me do some pushups. Let me do some squats. And little by little, and I think it's. It just needs to, I need to get back into that.

Rich Jones: 42:34

And what you're describing that little by little and that confidence building, that's how the upward spiral begins. We talk about downward spirals. Yeah. But that's how the upward spiral begins. A lot of time. It can start with something as simple as movement. And what I mean by that is, one good habit, or one behavior, or one achievement, i, the word achievement can be loaded cuz some of us are overachiever. But one good beha, one behavior, I even saying good, bad, I'm trying to get away from that too. But one behavior, one thing leads to another thing that serves you, that leads to another thing that serves you. So you get out, you walk, you drink more water. If you drink more water, maybe you eat healthier as well, you start thinking about what time you go to bed or something like that, and not just do a few random things out there, right? That work like that. But like for me, the athlete example is, okay, I know I wanna workout today and to get the most of the workout today, I need to make sure I get a good night's sleep before the workout and after, because recovery happens while you're asleep. I also need to make sure that I'm properly hydrated today so that I don't cramp. And then I also need to think about how I eat afterwards to make sure that I'm getting the right amount of protein to get all of the benefits of the workout. And then, oh, by the way, that translates into what time I go to bed, what time I wake up. And then also how I structure my. So that's like one, one thing leads to all of those other things. So that's when I talk about the upper spiral, I'm talking about that and it also transfers to work the way that I show up at work as a result of these other things. So one thing leads to another and it's again, it starts with something small. Yeah. I think

Adam: 44:09

you mentioned some a term earlier micro achievements. Was that what it was?

Rich Jones: 44:13

Yeah, I just made that up on the spot.

Adam: 44:14

Oh, nice. It sounded like a thing and it sounded

Rich Jones: 44:16

great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And to me those are, they're small wins. Those are those little moments that we typically skip past and say, okay, what's next? We even do that with big things even last year, just like de track. It's okay, I jumped this. Like, all right, what's next? All right, I gotta get to the championship. But it's the simple, a micro achievement can be crossing something off your to-do list that's been sitting there or it's just, maybe it's just for that. It can be, remembering to do your 10 minutes of stretching. That, that's, you could probably say that's a bit more than micro. But it's about those little things that happen throughout the day. It's, again, it's about being present. I think that's part of what it comes down to, because to celebrate those micro achievements, you have to be present that there's no other way you can celebrate them because you're, because if you're in the future, you're not able to celebrate. And if you're thinking about what happened in the past, you're not able to celebrate what just happened either.

Adam: 45:04

Yep. Exactly. Said. So Rich. Earlier you mentioned the idea of mental wealth, right? And your podcast is the Mental Wealth Show. You said that your idea of mental wealth has been evolving, and so I'd love to have you share as you start most of your episodes. What does mental wealth mean to you?

Rich Jones: 45:22

Yeah, for me, it's really about the mindset, the behaviors, and also the investments that you're making yourself. It's the totality of those three things and mindset. There's a lot out there oh, have a positive mindset. No. It's much more deeper and complex than that. When I'm thinking mindset, yes, there's the growth mindset and having a, an outlook of abundance, but there's also the way that you prioritize yourself and there's also the way that you move in the world. There's intention to me that is also part of the mindset even being able to, fail. I recently got rejected for something. No, it wasn't a job. Google. I'm not leaving, but I recently got. I recently got rejected for something and for a moment, like it hurt for a few moments, it hurt. But I had to think about the mindset and my affirmations to be able to say, okay, like that thing happened. How do I get outta the present? Okay, what can I do in the future? Okay, how can I take what I learned? And I know even that's not being in the present, cuz there wasn't nothing to celebrate about this. But even in that situation, the mindset was okay that happened. What can I learn in the future? And even the feelings, okay, this does suck and that's. That's a mindset thing. The behaviors, and I associate that more with wellness, where it's about the ways that you're taking care of yourself and the ways that you're moving toward, what you want in life, whether that's, better habits or whether that's an a, a new career for yourself, whether that's something else that you're striving toward. And then investments, those are the things that we talked about or will talk about where you're, whether it's investing time or investing financially to close the gap or to help you get back on track in areas where you feel that the efforts that you've made alone or that, the information that you have at this point in time isn't quite where you need it to be, to get where you want to go. So mental wealth, to me is the totality of those three things.

Adam: 47:05

Love it. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, no doubt. All right, so Rich, let's shift gears now into what I call the mindful fire Final four. You ready? I'm

Rich Jones: 47:14

ready. Let's go. All right.

Adam: 47:17

so Rich, the first question is all about envisioning. I talk a lot about envisioning on the podcast. It's had a huge impact in my life. I'd love for you to share a story about something that you envisioned making happen in your life. We talked about a few so far, so you can talk about one of those or something else, but, something that you thought, ah, that would be awesome. I'm not sure how I'm gonna make that happen, but how having that clarity in your mind helped you move towards it.

Rich Jones: 47:42

I love this question because it relates to something I've been talking about lately, and it goes back to my coach. One of the first things that my leadership coach had me do was an exercise where I envisioned a day, two to three years in the future. So this was back in 2020, and to just freeform right from the beginning of that day to the end of the day, how that day went. And he told me to spend as much time on it as I wanted. I thought it would be brief. I ended up writing pages and pages, and in that envisioning document I talked about being in the best shape of my life. I talked about. Being in a comfortable place as far as preneur, if that's a word, and how things were going. I talked about, the way that I was showing up at work. I even talked about, track and field even though training wasn't a thought at the time. And I realized recently that everything just about everything that I wrote, the only thing that's probably not happening is me and my fiance taking these walks and talking about the day. That's probably the only thing that doesn't happen, even though we do still talk about those things. But I realized that everything I'd written down had actually happened. And it wasn't even like a conscious, it wasn't even a conscious thing like that where I'm like, okay, I wrote this years ago. It has to happen. It's just, there was something about write, like actually writing it that man, I can't tell you exactly what it is, but to see those things that I wrote down and envisioned years ago happen today because of the be and I attributed in some part to that exercise.

Adam: 49:11

Powerful. Yeah, I love that dude. And yeah, I've had that same experience. Like I recently, was digging, cleaning out my backpack and I dug into one of the pockets and I found a piece of paper that was basically my wife and I sitting down and doing an envisioning exercise Similar to that, I have, you did search inside yourself, right? The exercise that we do in there where we envision five years from now describing how all the amazing things that have happened in our life, and it was the same thing. It was the house and the family and the this and the that, and it was all there and it had our all happened, right? And that's the power of this, right? It's the fact that our brains are predictive. And so when we create some space to think big about our life and what we really want, we plant those seeds in our mind. And our mind goes to work looking for evidence and opportunities to move towards that. And I've heard so many examples of this and I've had so many examples of this, so it's really cool. And so I'm glad to hear that's the case. And sounds like the going for walks and talking rather than just talking at home, like that's an easy fix that you can round out the list and knock it all out.

Rich Jones: 50:19

Yeah, it really is. It really is. And it just, it probably, that's probably the most powerful envisioning thing that I've done and I don't think about it as much because it's worked in the subconscious. There's other stuff where I've dreamed of being back out on the track and things like that and even the envisioning what it would feel like to compete and not just, maybe not win, but just to compete. And that was a mo that was a motivating factor because it, it helps with creating emotional goals is what I call them, where I may tell a client envision how it feels to accomplish that thing. Or how it will feel. What, what will it be like? And that's been motivating too, like envisioning man like where to, to the point where when you envision something that you almost tear up about it or you tear up about it, that tells you that it's really important to you. And there's something in that, that I found is that just really connects me to their goal. And it's helped people that I work with re really connect to their goals and strive toward'em too. Being able to actually feel what it's like to achieve those things.

Adam: 51:20

Yeah. Emotions are so important, for, for us, right? Emotion, it's like essentially energy. Emotion, right? And so the more we can tap into those feelings now, the more we just move towards them and yeah, that visualization, all of that is Watering the seeds, right? Yeah. You planted the seeds when you did that exercise, and then every time you thought about that, you you're just watering those seeds and cultivating that plant and moving towards it, and so it's just, it can't help but happen when you do that. Exactly. Yeah. So if people want to do an exercise like this, they can certainly download the free envisioning guide I have@mindfulfire.org slash start, and I'll do an exec exercise very similar to them. All right All right, rich, question number two. All right, rich. The next question is, what piece of advice would you give to someone early on their path to financial independence?

Rich Jones: 52:11

What advice would I. I can't say that it's advice, it's a question. And the first thing I want to know is why, not because it's bad. Good. But again, it's just such a critical question to understand like, why are you striving for that thing? What is it gonna allow you to do? I wanna make sure that if someone is committed to, whether it's financial independence or anything significant in life, that they understand why they're committed to it and, and what it's gonna ultimately allow them to do. Because I think we both know people who've pursued fire or folks that achieved fire and they weren't as happy as they thought they'd be because it turned out that that actually fire was what they thought that they wanted. And they thought that would solve everything that they had going on. But there are people out there where they're like, okay, I got the finances, I've saved, I've done all this, and they have this extra time now. And they're not enjoying it. So that's, it's, so again, it's not direct advice per se, or maybe the advice is to make sure that you're doing it for reasons that serve you. But that's probably gonna be the first thing that I start with for someone is like, why? And making sure that you're doing it for the right reasons. Cuz that's also gonna make it easier, for lack of a better word, to stick to it because it's something that you actually want. Yeah.

Adam: 53:23

Said. I think that's a excellent, an excellent piece of advice because which hasn't come up before, although it is part of what I, what mindful fire is all about, right? It's like you need to ask that question, why are you doing this? And that requires self-awareness. That requires mindfulness, which is awareness and curiosity and kindness towards yourself. And just keep coming back to that, right? Why? And. I think that's so important, right? It's, I have that with fire, I have that with the podcast. Sometimes I find myself totally burnt out and I'm like, why am I even doing this? What, why am I putting all this work in for$0? Yeah. It comes back. You, it come back to that why, and I think that's really important. Alright. The third question is, what piece of advice would you give to someone getting started with meditation and or mindfulness?

Rich Jones: 54:16

There's no way to do it wrong because I know so many people, even just last week, they're like, oh, I need to get back in the meditation. But I'm just, ah, I just, I can't focus. I'm like, That is the whole point as you're supposed to, the only thing you're supposed to do is acknowledge it, be kind to yourself about it, and then get back to whatever the center the focal point was or whatever the grounding activity is. And it's all about awareness. It's all about awareness, so you can't do it wrong. That's why even sometimes with people, I think I'd posted on one of the platforms, like meditation is overrated. And it wasn't that I disagreed with meditation, it's just that what people think of it as, they think of it as like this thing where I'm not supposed to have any thoughts in my mind or, I'm supposed to achieve this. Just feeling of calm in Nirvana. And I've had times where like I've meditated and I've thought to myself, okay, I finished up and I've still got some tension. Maybe it's a little bit better, but Okay. That's like the takeaway for me, maybe this particular thing is really on my mind. That, that may be the takeaway, but, I want, I always tell people we're thinking about it. I'm like, worse, you can't do it wrong. The objective isn't to have a completely clear mind. It's to notice and then to bring yourself back to whatever the grounding, action, tapping, whatever it may be.

Adam: 55:34

Yeah. Great advice. I think that's the number one thing that people say whenever I've talked to or taught meditation or talked to people about it, is I'm convinced I'm doing it wrong. That was certainly my experience. I actually gave up, and fortunately, the person who introduced me to it gave me the, I ran into him a few months later and he gave me the real talk that like, that's normal. That's exactly what is going to happen. Your mind creates thoughts, so yeah. Good to know. All right, rich, the last question is how can people connect with you online? Find your podcast? You're coaching all the things that you're contributing to the world. How can they find all that online? Man,

Rich Jones: 56:11

I was waiting for the doozy. Thank you for this layup slash lob off the backboard so you could find me on LinkedIn. That's the social media platform of choice. Rich Jones. I can probably provide a link for you to share with folks to get directly to my LinkedIn profile since there are so many rich Joneses out there. I think if you search at Rich Runs track, it'll come up. So at Rich Runs track on LinkedIn at Rich Runs track on Instagram at Rich Runs track on Twitter. You can find the podcast at the Mental Wealth Show and everything that's going on within my world and my orbit, you could find it, find more balance.com. That's where you can learn about my coaching. My speaking Mental Health Awareness month is in May. I know that there's other themed months coming up, so if you're thinking about speakers and you wanna bring someone in who will make you look good, I can be that dude. So all that information is@findmorebalance.com and yeah, at Rich Runs track across social media platforms and I look forward to hearing from folks. I've had a few people reached out to me, from other podcasts that I've been on LinkedIn, on these other platforms. I do

Adam: 57:17

respond. Yeah. Awesome. I will link all of that up in the show notes and yeah, I see you chatting with people on LinkedIn all the time, so Yeah, definitely reach out to him, ask your questions, and follow both of us. We're both here to engage with you and have these conversations and we're all just figuring it out and investing in ourselves and trying to live the life we wanna live, so reach out.

Rich Jones: 57:38

Yes. We're all on a journey. Yeah.

Adam: 57:40

Thank you, rich. I really appreciate you being here. It's, as I said at the beginning, it's been a long time coming and it's, it's been a pleasure to dive into this with you. So thanks for being here.

Rich Jones: 57:49

Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed this one.